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DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#52101: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:10:13 PM

[up] Let's just say a nation without borders, with no way to regulate who comes, who goes, and who pays taxes, and receives bonus is not a nation that's going to last.

That may be deathpigeon's goal, but it isn't mine, nor (thankfully, in opinion) is it one shared by anyone in power.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#52102: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:10:19 PM

[up][up][up] Oh, I doubt it's possible in the short term, but we cannot forget our long term goals in the fight for our short term goals and we always should be pushing toward the long term goals.

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:10:54 PM by deathpigeon

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#52103: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:12:01 PM

Also, without immigration (legal and otherwise) we'd have a declining population, which wouldn't be a good thing, currently.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52104: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:12:55 PM

@Tentacles - Doctor, I assure you the number of Republicans who want some faux-Walfen-SS troopers to round up countless millions of people, tag them, and dump them on the other side of the border (essentially spending a billion dollars to get rid of billions more, in the form of all the ways they contribute to the economy) can be counted on one hand.

But the problem is, to a quasi-conservative such as myself, it looks like liberals are simply saying "The rules are evil! Save the people!" and meanwhile at this very minute Mexicans are coming across illegally. And everytime someone wants to do something to stem the tide, and thus stymying the drain on social services, and putting a leash on border drug violence, another liberal starts screaming "XENOPHOBIA! RACISM! TEA PARTY!"

It gets frustrating.

It was an honor
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#52105: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:14:21 PM

[up][up] ...And open borders would eliminate immigration? I highly doubt that.

...Also, I was a bit confused by what you said, at first, since I first took the "we" in that to mean the world rather than the US...

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:14:47 PM by deathpigeon

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#52106: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:15:01 PM

Last I heard, the US borders to Mexico are actually the tightest they've been in all of the country's history.

putting a leash on border drug violence
Of what I understance, a lot of the Drug Violence there is connected by side effects of the U.S.'s almost psychotic behavior regarding the War on Drugs and banning the legalization of drugs, which would arguably take money out of the hands of the cartels.

(Also supposedly the Assualt Weapon ban lapsing let Latin American cartel violence to jump?)

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:17:26 PM by PotatoesRock

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#52107: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:17:06 PM

[up][up][up] Not having them come across would not be good for our economy, as it stands. I'd rather have illegal immigration, and a functioning economy.

...Well...somewhat functioning? More functioning that it would be otherwise?...

Than not have them come across at all. And mass deportations has been brought up seriously by people in power.

Having completely open borders has never been brought up. The Republicans have stubbornly resisted immigration reform for a long time. Do I have to bring up sources? I can.

Ideally, we can fix immigration, so we don't have the make the above choice. However, even now (though less than it used to be), efforts by democratic congressmen are being blocked by republicans, while more laws like the one in Arizona are being proposed.

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:17:23 PM by DrTentacles

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#52108: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:17:29 PM

Well they shouldn't always be crying racism, but I can certainly say we've got some rules that are evil and need updating. It's easy to want to change the rules if you've held the position that the rules have always been evil or outdated and they need a good updating.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#52109: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:20:37 PM

Followup:

Also, the myth that illegal immigrants drain social services is just that, a myth. Whites have the highest drain on things like Wellfare, especially whites in the deep south bible belt. Blacks (sorry) have the highest per-captita drain (Blame it on institutionalized racism, crab bucket mentality, and lack of genuine inner-city education reform). Most illegal immigrants pay taxes (payroll/income, and sales), yet receive nothing in return.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#52110: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:22:30 PM

Doctor, I assure you the number of Republicans who want some faux-Walfen-SS troopers to round up countless millions of people, tag them, and dump them on the other side of the border (essentially spending a billion dollars to get rid of billions more, in the form of all the ways they contribute to the economy) can be counted on one hand.

Starship my man, do you really want to challenge us to find 6 loonies who think this is a good idea? Because I'm sure we could. wink Maybe change it to "...the number of Republicans elected to office who want..."?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#52111: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:24:38 PM

I'm tempted to accept that challenge, even if you restrict it to elected officials. I'd even be willing to restrict it to the state level and higher.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52112: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:24:41 PM

More MSNBC facts. Whites make up the majority of the country and thus, yes, they are the biggest drain on social services. A steadying stream of people of unknown status and criminal background check is not good.

We're talking about people who may or may not even use a real name. And they don't pay payroll tax, their employers do, such as when they do pay them on the books.

Again, contrary to popular myth, nobody wants people who are contributing to society to get kicked out. But goddamn it, the rules are in place for everybody. It's not for people to ignore them when they feel like.

[up] & [up][up] Let's not get carried away guys. tongue

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:25:32 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#52113: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:25:41 PM

Tentacles got to it while I was in mid-post typing, but yeah, illegal immigrants as a whole are a financial benefit to society, not a drain.

And when 'conservatives' make arguments that are based on fiction rather than facts, it makes it pretty hard NOT to consider it racist or some other form of -ist, because what motive, otherwise, do you have for making these things up?

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#52114: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:27:24 PM

I repeat: The current laws regarding immigration make it very hard for wealthy entrepenurs to live here, set up shop and revitalize the economy. That's how bad it is.

This is as blatant a lie if ever there was one...

No "wealthy entrepreneur" has ever been prevented from immigrating to the US unless they have what the US would consider a felony. And even then, that is only an issue if they aren't "wealthy" enough.

It's the "middle-class" people wanting to immigrate that get screwed...

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#52115: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:27:52 PM

Whatever happened to "An unjust law is no law at all?"tongue

The majority of immigrants are not criminals. Not even a plurality. If they do turn to crime, it's because lack of legal documentation keeps them from legal forms of work.

And I addressed whites being a majority in the second part of the post.

We're basically arguing the same thing here. You're just assuming most liberals believe differently than you, and that conservatives believe the same, while that isn't the case, and hasn't been since the 70s at least.

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:30:35 PM by DrTentacles

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#52116: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:29:09 PM

[up][up][up] Who was it that said "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance"?

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:29:15 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#52117: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:29:18 PM

But goddamn it, the rules are in place for everybody. It's not for people to ignore them when they feel like.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

Our nation constantly breaks it's own rules to do what "needs to be done" in their eyes. Maybe the rules need to change not the people.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52118: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:31:42 PM

Again, nobody is arguing the majority of Mexican-Americans make this place better. That's a fact, we all know it, nobody's disputing it.

But.....you simply can't have unenforced borders. Because yes, the few rotten apples will spoil the barrel.

It was an honor
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#52119: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:32:52 PM

Re-posting, since I edited it in.

We're basically arguing the same thing here. You're just assuming most liberals believe differently than you in this, and that conservatives believe the same, while that isn't the case, and hasn't been since the 70s at least.

Unenforced borders would be a nightmare. What we need (and the majority of democrats, at least the ones in power believe the same) are borders that are loose enough that no one feels the needs to get around illegally (or at least that the majority of people do) and tight enough that we have a good idea of who's going where, and for what reason, and we can stop the "bad apples" as you put them.

I really think we should have some sort of "Working VISA" that easy to obtain. Not full citizenship, but make it easy for people to come over, work a job, and slowly earn their way to pull citizenship.

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:35:47 PM by DrTentacles

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#52120: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:33:12 PM

.you simply can't have unenforced borders.

Starship, no one (except DP, who is crazy tongue) is calling for unforced borders. So I don't know who you're arguing with.

[down] You think this is bad, one time I was discussing the benefits of socialism then 20 second later I was calling for a fascist takeover of the United States.

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:35:44 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#52121: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:33:17 PM

We were arguing for unenforced borders? I'm just arguing for immigration reform.

I was only saying I could see D Ps point of view cause I think it would be nice to live in a totally different society, but I can't honestly support it until I can figure out how it would work.

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:36:52 PM by Wildcard

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52122: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:37:03 PM

(re-reads last few posts) Hm. Okay. Perhaps....we are arguing the same thing.

Ah. Carry on.

It was an honor
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#52123: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:37:07 PM

There was the time I went from "Reasonably Priced Healthcare for all" to    "SUFFER NOT THE WEAK, THE OLD, OR THE INFIRM TO LIVE!"   

EDIT: Yeah. You're still a secret liberal at heart, Starship, though Republican party has been getting more reasonable about immigration of late, if for cynical reasons. (But I'll take sane self-interest over stupid any day.)

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:41:18 PM by DrTentacles

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52124: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:39:54 PM

You guys do NOT want to compare having views conflated.

Remember I'm the guy who's going to murder all uppity feminist women, militant gays, and anybody who needs even an ounce of government aid.

Not...quite....my master plan.

It was an honor
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#52125: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:41:11 PM

Remember I'm the guy who's going to murder all uppity feminist women, militant gays, and anybody who needs even an ounce of government aid.

HE CONFESSED!!! BURN THE WITCH!

I knew we'd get you to admit it one day.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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