TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50726: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:26:52 PM

I wonder if everyone would feel more secure if they just handed out battleaxes at the gate...

Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#50727: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:28:05 PM

[up][up]&[up][up][up]Or use them as intentional suiside bombs.

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#50728: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:29:23 PM

RE Planes: Okay, fair enough. Now back to US Politics.

[up][up] Nice idea, but then we'd have to deal with the good possibility of the situation creating some trigger-happy paranoiacs who could easily snap from their... well, paranoia.

edited 6th Mar '13 3:30:41 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#50729: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:34:12 PM

[up][up][up] Same sort of thinking with everything else. Those who want a battle axe will take one, and those who just don't want one will not take one, while others will think that no one should have a battle axe and want to take them away from those who do.

[up] Yes, like guns.

edited 6th Mar '13 3:35:11 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#50731: Mar 6th 2013 at 6:20:25 PM

The Fourth Amendment of the Constitution already provides us with protection against unreasonable search and seizures for people in their “persons, houses, papers, and effects” – is it time that we add “data” to this list?

Yes, definitely so.

The fourth amendment is supposed to protect against government harassment. If you're interrogated and your information was seized, and later released, is that a good thing? Do you get paid for your cooperation, or credited? No. Despite not being punished and turned criminal, you're still at a loss. Fourth (and fifth) amendments are there for that reason.

In any case, the Homeland Security isn't the arbiter of this right. It's the judiciary.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50732: Mar 6th 2013 at 6:31:24 PM

I could see a reasonable case being made that data stored on the cloud is not protected, but anything on your hard drive should definitely be included.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#50733: Mar 6th 2013 at 6:35:14 PM

Would it require a new amendment to officially add "data" to the list in the Fourth Amendment's actual document, or does a judicial ruling by SCOTUS suffice?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#50734: Mar 6th 2013 at 6:44:38 PM

[up]All that would be needed is for SCOTUS to say that the data in your hard drive(or any electronic data of yours that couldn't "reasonably" be obtained by someone else), falls under the "effects" category of the 4th amendment...

But that may never happen(though, more likely, it'd happen years after present if the current cases before them don't change anything)... Congress adding "data" to the 4th Amendment would guarantee it applied... But that's probably less likely to happen that a SCOTUS ruling.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#50735: Mar 6th 2013 at 7:02:43 PM

With regards to cloud storage, it's definitely not covered by the 4th amendment: there was a story recently about a Catholic deacon being arrested after Verison found child porn on his cloud backup they hosted.

The article itself (which was posted by a tech news site, after all) is fairly technical, but they do briefly mention 4th amendment issues.

edited 6th Mar '13 7:03:30 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#50736: Mar 6th 2013 at 7:10:33 PM

5th amendment also applies. I'm pretty sure "suspected of lying to the police" isn't a reason to forcefully detain and interrogate and leave the person with time loss. If the person chose to state that she declined to answer, she should have been let go.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50737: Mar 6th 2013 at 7:37:13 PM

Yeah-by virtue of storing the data on the cloud, it is no longer in your personal effects. Only reason data on your hard drive should be covered is because it's your hard drive.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#50738: Mar 6th 2013 at 7:42:28 PM

I don't necessarily agree. Just because you have someone else store your data doesn't make it not your data. The nature of the online world means that physical possession is no longer the sole consideration for 4th amendment rights. Aren't police not permitted to wantonly search a post office box, or a security deposit box, or a car, without a warrant or at least probable cause? Same thing applies.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50740: Mar 6th 2013 at 7:52:15 PM

I'm not saying protecting data in the cloud is a bad idea, I just find it hard to define as an effect.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#50741: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:01:38 PM

I've heard a report that outlines some of Obama's proposed spending cuts.

$400 billion from federal health spending, $140 billion in reductions for payments to drug companies and $25 billion dollars in reductions from Medicare.

That true? Any sources?

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#50742: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:04:19 PM

The reduction in payments to drug companies is desirable in that it also helps cut healthcare costs. The other stuff... I think Obama is doing another one of his baited offers. If the Republicans take it, they'll have to concede tax increases, which they won't ever do. It's a dangerous game to play but it's the only one he has right now. Or so he probably thinks.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#50743: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:06:30 PM

[up] What if that isn't a baited proposal? What if he actually wants to slash stuff to that extent? What if he actually does slash stuff to that extent?

edited 6th Mar '13 8:07:00 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#50744: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:08:45 PM

How? Who's going to vote for it — Democrats in the Senate certainly won't. And Republicans have already made it plainly clear that they will not support anything that Obama offers, even if it's exactly what they asked for.

In a hypothetical world where Republican politicians were willing to come to the table and offer a genuine compromise position in return, then Obama's willingness to strike a bargain might get something accomplished. As it is, it just shows off their intransigence.

edited 6th Mar '13 8:10:52 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#50745: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:10:43 PM

[up][up]Can't even if he wanted to. The Democrats in both houses of Congress pointed out that such cuts to federal healthcare would delay the implementation of the ACA, also know as "the thing that's going to determine whether or not most of us get reelected over the next 20 years". Both sides know that the more the U.S. electorate gets used to the ACA, the more comfortable they will be with its provisions and the more open they might be to further healthcare reform. The Democrats know the Republicans know this and hate that fact. Obama could want to cut government more than Grover Norquist; it won't matter, because Reid won't let that shit fly. I've my differences with Reid, but he's too canny to commit suicide by surrender as many in his party have attempted before.

edited 6th Mar '13 8:10:57 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#50746: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:13:25 PM

If Democrats aren't willing to call bullshit on the Disposition Matrix (extrajudicial killings), what makes you think they're likely to call bullshit on that?

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#50747: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:13:40 PM

Is there anything else besides healthcare that's there to cut? I don't know why we keep rolling back to this (and to defense spending).

[up]Because Democrats are much closer to Republicans on foreign policy and national security than on domestic socioeconomics. I'll leave the extrajudicial killings topic at that.

edited 6th Mar '13 8:14:43 PM by Trivialis

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#50748: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:17:09 PM

Democrats bow their heads on extrajudicial killings because it's Obama that's doing it. Remember how up in arms they were about the Patriot Act? Not a peep when Obama renewed it.

I'm expecting the same Groupthink to come into play when they cut Medicare, Medicaid and/or Social Security.

edited 6th Mar '13 8:19:11 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#50749: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:19:02 PM

The sad fact is that voters care less about the power of the government to kill brown people with funny names than they care about their own healthcare. As such, one problem is an electoral threat to congressional Democrats and the other is not. That more or less decides which problem gets addressed.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#50750: Mar 6th 2013 at 8:19:50 PM

That line of thinking won't matter when Congress removes their healthcare anyway.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Total posts: 417,856
Top