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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#50026: Feb 19th 2013 at 7:50:40 PM

...Ok, I have a couple of problems with what you said. First, um, the anarchists did create armies. The Black Army lasted for years against the Red and White Armies despite being completely outnumbered by both of them, and the militias in Spain held the frontline while the Republican's army spent time training and arming themselves despite the militias having limited supplies and training. Second, anarchists have absolutely no problem with organization. We have problems with enforced organization and hierarchical organization and seek to create spontaneous, voluntary, and egalitarian organization. Simply put, we got our act together, and stuck around for far longer than we had any right to against armies with better training and supplies or vastly superior armies.

You're showing a lack of understanding of anarchism and of what happened in Anarchist Catalonia and the Free Territories of Ukraine.

edited 19th Feb '13 7:52:09 PM by deathpigeon

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#50027: Feb 19th 2013 at 8:43:24 PM

Anarchists have no problems with organization, correct. The problem is that once you get an organization together that has a monopoly on the use of organized force in the region, it becomes an institution unto itself, which leads to organizational loyalty and the possibility of the army's leaders starting to lobby and advocate (or later, coerce) in favor of the army's own interests. That's the paradox that I'm driving at.

And I'll note that while Catalonia held on for far longer than it would have been expected to, it still lost, and one of the reasons was that the pro-anarchist factions were Hanging Separately and too many of the anarchists were cooperating with the PCE and allowing the PCE to issue orders in Catalonia. In short, I'm not calling that "getting your act together." (The Free Territory, of course, was defeated because they actually trusted the Bolsheviks, which I'll definitely admit could happen to anyone.)

edited 19th Feb '13 8:45:58 PM by Ramidel

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#50029: Feb 19th 2013 at 9:38:46 PM

[up] Tea Party Patriots already apologizing to Rove for the photo

Hilariously, the Bing image search that's to blame now has Rove in his Nazi uniform as the first image.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#50030: Feb 19th 2013 at 10:34:27 PM

The problem is that once you get an organization together that has a monopoly on the use of organized force in the region, it becomes an institution unto itself, which leads to organizational loyalty and the possibility of the army's leaders starting to lobby and advocate (or later, coerce) in favor of the army's own interests.

But anarchist militias wouldn't have a monopoly of force in any region. First and foremost, anyone could start a militia if he/she wishes and people could join.

And I'll note that while Catalonia held on for far longer than it would have been expected to, it still lost, and one of the reasons was that the pro-anarchist factions were Hanging Separately and too many of the anarchists were cooperating with the PCE and allowing the PCE to issue orders in Catalonia. In short, I'm not calling that "getting your act together."

No, it's that the pro-Republican factions that were Hanging Separately, not the pro-anarchist factions. The anarchists were one of those factions. The main Republicans were hostile to both the anarchists and the POUM who were hostile with each other, though not openly as they were both too busy having people be hostile toward them to be hostile toward each other, and especially the PCE was hostile to the anarchists and POUM. (1984 was, in a large part, Also, it was a minority of the anarchists who cooperated with the PCE. Honestly, the Spanish Civil War is best described as a clusterfuck.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50031: Feb 20th 2013 at 12:20:39 AM

The problem with anyone being able to start a militia has to do greatly with herd mentality and the advantage of first movers. It will most likely also include the cult of personality issue. These are problems inherent in human nature, not specific to any societal model. Anarchy has no effective break on human behavior. It's all well and good to say "anyone can come and go as they like", but you clearly don't understand what peer pressure can make a person do and put up with. You also don't appear to be aware of what loyalty to a person will make someone put up with.

[up][up][up]And thank God for that court case. Maybe now we can move in the direction of limiting monetary issues in campaigns.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#50032: Feb 20th 2013 at 12:26:43 AM

How can on speak of human nature when so much of what we are is defined so much by the society we live in? Surely we cannot judge human nature without comparing our society with all other societies, matching up what parts of the societies are similar enough that they would have the same or similar effects, ignore those, then compare people from all the societies, and find what they have similar? And, even then, we'd probably still not get human nature. You speak of this as human nature, but I look at society and say I see where that comes from. It comes from the hierarchical nature of society teaching people to live their lives under the thumb of another and to choose the person who they like the best to live under. That's an affect of any hierarchical society, not of "human nature", which is so nebulous we will probably never be able to figure out what it is.

OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#50033: Feb 20th 2013 at 12:32:06 AM

Yes, but that structure was not cultivated so stringently and deliberately as you seem to think. It was not crafted and then guarded and enforced by some external force. It is what we developed utterly on our own (at least, by the best provable model for the development of civilization). To deny it as being influenced by our nature seems somewhat silly.

But this is very off topic.

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#50034: Feb 20th 2013 at 12:35:38 AM

True, it is very off topic I'll just make one more point, but do Lions have an anarchic system? Do Gorillas? Chimpanzees?

edited 20th Feb '13 12:35:50 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#50035: Feb 20th 2013 at 12:37:16 AM

And thank God for that court case. Maybe now we can move in the direction of limiting monetary issues in campaigns.
With the current court? Pfthahaha. I doubt it.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#50036: Feb 20th 2013 at 12:42:19 AM

[up][up][up] It is certainly influenced by our nature, but I see it as more of an affect of society than of nature. Plus, even if it were human nature, which I consider to be more of a cop-out than anything when used in an argument because human nature is something nebulously defined which can mean anything you want. I mean, I could make just as good of a case that cooperation being in human nature as isolation.

[up][up] ...And that should matter... why? We are not talking about lions or gorillas or chimpanzees. We are talking about humans who organize themselves in ways no other animal does. I mean, where does capitalism and wage labor appear in animals? Where does representative democracy appear in animals? We have created systems that no other animal could create before, why should anarchism be any different?

To be honest, both the human nature argument and the argument that it doesn't appear in any other animal sound like Appeal to Nature fallacies to me. :/

OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#50037: Feb 20th 2013 at 12:52:27 AM

[up][up] Yeah... I don't see the case as presented going against raising money.

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#50038: Feb 20th 2013 at 2:33:22 AM

It's the same court that made EULAs where you waive your right to sue legal, isn't it?

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#50039: Feb 20th 2013 at 6:42:28 AM

Anything notable about what happened to those idiots who tried to forge a sex video of Mrs. Clinton?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#50040: Feb 20th 2013 at 7:24:17 AM

[up]Surely having to see and edit something like that is its own punishment?

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#50041: Feb 20th 2013 at 7:52:04 AM

Wait, was it forgery, or just "parody"? Because if the latter, no matter how bad the taste, there should be nothing illegal about it (except maybe failure to restrict access from minors).

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#50042: Feb 20th 2013 at 12:56:03 PM

It's in "investigation" mode, so expect to hear about it (if at all) in a few months.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from RuschestraĂŸe 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#50044: Feb 20th 2013 at 3:17:13 PM

[up]

This from the Party with the ever-so-subtle PATRIOT Act or Defense of Marriage Act? Puh-lease!

Seriously, one thing I don't get, though, is why US politicians feel the need to insert their own spin into bill titles. For instance, look at the PATRIOT Act. There is no good reason it couldn't have been called the "Terrorism and Security Act" or the "Domestic Security Act." The Dems are no better - call it the "Public-Option Health Care Act" or the "Healthcare Act", not the "Affordable Health Care for America Act" (and indeed, who else would the US government be passing healthcare law for? Tajikistan?) Its a bleed-in of ideology and it isn't nice - politicians should lead, and that requires maintaining some dignity when discharging the functions of state, not pissing around trying to make bill titles sound nice.

edited 20th Feb '13 3:19:35 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheShopSoldier THE DISGRACE STILL LINGERS UPON ME from Messin' with Neo Arcadia... Just Because Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
THE DISGRACE STILL LINGERS UPON ME
#50045: Feb 20th 2013 at 3:21:05 PM

[up]You said it better than I was going to say it. I was ready to cuss out this guy! Simple as that...

I'm not too good with links, But I need to put this stuff out there, due o how it all rubs me the wrong way:

http://www.care2.com/causes/heres-the-proof-marco-rubio-wants-to-run-in-2016.html

This one concerns me the most - because the idea of only being able to GM Os sounds very bad for my health, knowing they seem to do more harm then good - or am I misreading this? http://www.care2.com/causes/how-one-75-year-old-soybean-farmer-could-deal-a-blow-to-monsantos-empire-today.html

This one, however, makes me laugh a little. if only because I'm missing the point - or this one is really stupid, overall... http://www.care2.com/causes/milk-it-does-a-body-bad.html

edited 20th Feb '13 3:26:02 PM by TheShopSoldier

Even if I had different face, I AM STILL DISGRACED.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50046: Feb 20th 2013 at 3:25:58 PM

I am so sick and tired of people who aren't teachers deciding what people who are teachers can say about the subjects they're teaching. It's fucking ridiculous.

As per the human nature thing: Yeah, saying that our society isn't influenced by our nature is stupid. It's people that make a society, after all.

TheShopSoldier THE DISGRACE STILL LINGERS UPON ME from Messin' with Neo Arcadia... Just Because Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
THE DISGRACE STILL LINGERS UPON ME
#50047: Feb 20th 2013 at 3:27:40 PM

[up]This. Just another excuse for the Far Christian Right to make well-meaning Christians, actual scientists, and actually educated people overall look bad. Hands down.

But what should I expect from the Bible Belt...

edited 20th Feb '13 3:28:06 PM by TheShopSoldier

Even if I had different face, I AM STILL DISGRACED.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#50048: Feb 20th 2013 at 3:30:27 PM

[up][up] And it's society that makes people.

edited 20th Feb '13 3:31:05 PM by deathpigeon

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#50049: Feb 20th 2013 at 3:30:36 PM

If 97 percent of climatologists agree on something then it's pretty much fact. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed or has an agenda.


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