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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49376: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:48:14 PM

I talk about the NRA because it is the driving force behind the gun lobby. It might as well be the only voice, because it's the only voice that's being heard. Take it away, and only then do you have the possibility for reasoned debate. The government has the power to fix the BATFE. It does not have the power to "fix" the NRA.

edited 13th Feb '13 2:48:57 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#49377: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:51:43 PM

@49376: I think you forgot the GOA or whatever that one's named.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TamH70 Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#49378: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:53:05 PM

Seek and wiki will provide. Or at least me, 8-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Owners_of_America

That the droid you are looking for?

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#49379: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:54:22 PM

It sounds like they are more extreme than the NRA(?)...

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#49380: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:55:18 PM

Would it work if the BATF was restructured and moved away from the DoJ? To the Department of Homeland Security, for example?

@ Fighteer: What's you view on...removing the NRA from the discussion?*

Or maybe the Government could find some way of pre-emptively answering the NRA's arguments, making them powerless?

Then again, to misquote Ronald Reagan:

"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw the Republican Party forever. We begin arrests in five minutes."

EDIT: There's a Useful Notes page on American Gun Politics. From there:

While the NRA is the predominate supporter of lawful gun usage, it's not the only one in the United States. Other noteworthy groups include the Pink Pistols, who focus on self-defense for GLBT individuals, the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, and the Gun Owners of America; the latter two tend to be more absolutist on the matter of gun control than the NRA. The Second Amendment Foundation and Law Enforcement Alliance of America are generally, although not always, considered more moderate supporters of gun owners' rights.

edited 13th Feb '13 2:58:41 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
TheBatPencil from Glasgow, Scotland Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#49381: Feb 13th 2013 at 3:05:23 PM

What Fighteer is talking about are people like Ted Nuget whose advocacy for the Second Amendment is linked with the idea that the Amendment is primarily for the purposes of defending against a tyrannical government.

Is the correct answer.

And herein lies the problem. You've got a considerable number of people who, basically, want to be George Washington. This is a group of people habitually prone to bouts of hysterical paranoia and some downright psychotic behaviour. These are dangerous, crazy people with a serious hard-on for what modern observers would call insurgency.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#49382: Feb 13th 2013 at 3:09:23 PM

GOA failed in its battle against New York Senator Chuck Schumer's (D-NY) NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007. The group claimed the bill (HR 2640 & S 2084) would give authorities — including courts, psychiatrists, and in some cases psychologists — the ability to revoke the Second Amendment rights of veterans who had been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder. GOA contended that this would be an infringement on the rights of veterans with mental disorders.

Okay. Maybe I'm translating this wrong, but are they complaining about people with known mental problems not being allowed to have guns?

"You can reply to this Message!"
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#49383: Feb 13th 2013 at 3:25:16 PM

Yes, I think so. Another statutory proposal was to ban the UN from seizing American guns. So yeah.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#49384: Feb 13th 2013 at 3:47:41 PM

I believe the Go A's objection to the mental health law was that some mental health issues are treatable and that it would be a far harder to have rights reinstated after treatment under that particular law.

As far as the UN small arms treaty and fears of the US having their firearms be confiscated, there's quite a bit of language going on there, but many feel safe in the idea that the US Constitution cannot be superseded by international treaty.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#49386: Feb 13th 2013 at 4:38:13 PM

I think I need to buy some gun manufactory stocks...

Just kidding. But that guy seems really loosing touch with reality. Or he is simply that cynically calculating.

Fox shows its compassionate side again.

That Lady has my respect for the determination in taking up her right to vote.

edited 13th Feb '13 4:46:04 PM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#49387: Feb 13th 2013 at 4:52:12 PM

He knows exactly what he's doing. He's making the gun manufacturerers rich so they give him money.

johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#49388: Feb 13th 2013 at 5:31:58 PM

I vote cynically calculating, if not overtly trolling.

Buy guns while you still can! Otherwise it goes back into the Disney vault forever.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#49389: Feb 13th 2013 at 5:45:34 PM

There's a reason why there are 90 million gun owners and only 4 million NRA members. The thing is that Wayne's not doing anything the NRA members aren't already saying themselves. "Buy guns while you still can, voice your support by becoming an NRA member!"

People are buying up new NRA memberships, some are even buying them for other people who want one. And there's a lot of people who donate money to the NRA, who are not members, because they support the 2nd Amendment, but don't want to be linked to the NRA.

Like Fighteer said, the NRA is sometimes the only voice being heard on that side of the debate because it is the loudest and most organized, even when they say things that pretty much screw over part of the demographic they would benefit from having the support of.

edited 13th Feb '13 5:45:57 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#49390: Feb 13th 2013 at 6:37:28 PM

And herein lies the problem. You've got a considerable number of people who, basically, want to be George Washington. This is a group of people habitually prone to bouts of hysterical paranoia and some downright psychotic behaviour. These are dangerous, crazy people with a serious hard-on for what modern observers would call insurgency.

On the other hand, you have a whole lot of gun owners who look at the NYPD or LAPD's antics of late and quite understandably think "yeah, I really don't want them to be the only ones with guns."

Or shitloads of people in the countryside a ten-minute drive from the nearest police station (at least one that's actually open — I'm in a small suburban city and the nearest operational station is several miles away because the close one is shut down most of the week) and quite understandably want a weapon for themselves because for the first 15 minutes of a confrontation you're completely on your own.

edited 13th Feb '13 6:41:39 PM by Pykrete

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49391: Feb 13th 2013 at 6:51:12 PM

On the other hand, you have a whole lot of gun owners who look at the NYPD or LAPD's antics of late and quite understandably think "yeah, I really don't want them to be the only ones with guns."

So you'd rather be the one who shoots back at the LAPD and becomes the subject of a statewide manhunt, then gets cornered in a cabin in the middle of nowhere and burned to death? That doesn't strike me as a superior option, frankly.

edited 13th Feb '13 6:51:32 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#49392: Feb 13th 2013 at 6:54:28 PM

[up][up]Maybe I'm misreading your point on the first one, but I don't think arming yourself against law enforcement is a good idea. I don't see starting a shootout against police good in any circumstance.

The second point, however, I think is perfectly reasonable.

boop
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#49394: Feb 13th 2013 at 7:11:55 PM

I'm sorry but I cannot take seriously anyone that wants guns so they can combat the government. Protecting yourself from criminals is one thing and I have no issue with that. However protecting yourself from "tyranny" is basically saying that you're willing to become a terrorist. Considering these types typically watch Fox News I feel I have grounds to be concerned if that's their argument. They love to whip people up into a frenzy over imagined outrages so we could have mass shootings from nutbags reacting to phony information. Even if they didn't go off half-cocked I have yet to see any evidence they could actually win once the tanks and drones are called in. We're basically putting a bunch of innocent people at risk for no benefit.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#49395: Feb 13th 2013 at 7:17:12 PM

BTW have Rubio and Rand Paul given there responses to Obama's State of the Union speech?
Yes. With prescripted responses that did not take the actual, entire State of the Union into account, I believe. That might be standard, but what I read about their responses is that it was odd and/or "Generic robot response dictated by the party elders".

edited 13th Feb '13 7:20:15 PM by PotatoesRock

johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#49396: Feb 13th 2013 at 7:28:22 PM

"John Boehner is the best communicator since Ronald Reagan. Take sip of water here."

I'm a skeptical squirrel
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#49397: Feb 13th 2013 at 7:33:54 PM

@Fighteer: That's the actual danger of Officer Dorner: people who the LAPD have screwed over (or who are just pissed at the world and need a convenient target) might take him as an icon and start copycat amoqs, and then LA becomes unpoliceable as any nut with a gun can take down a couple of cops before he's finally shot himself.

While the LAPD leadership might well deserve this, and (as individuals) I would refuse to call some of those who decided to rebel (Dorner is not on this list) morally wrong, that doesn't make it any less of a headache for everyone in the crossfire.

edited 13th Feb '13 7:36:12 PM by Ramidel

johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#49398: Feb 13th 2013 at 7:39:41 PM

My local news capped off the Dorner story thus:

Officials believe Dorner acted in retaliation for his dismissal from the Los Angeles police force

And that's all the world will take away about this. This is impotent violence at its worst.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#49399: Feb 13th 2013 at 8:54:41 PM

I read their responses. Rubio's was a pretty good speech.

Paul's was like a visit to the asylum.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#49400: Feb 13th 2013 at 9:04:37 PM

Rubio's speech suffered from being in opposition to reality, but it was decently wordsmithed if not the best on delivery. It could have stood more truth and fewer talking points.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

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