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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49351: Feb 13th 2013 at 12:58:21 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way. Responsible people don't post videos on You Tube and go on talk programs and declare the Second American Revolution or the Apocalypse of Democracy or whatever preemptively because a major shooting made the news. Gun control has been talked about for decades. Start helping your hobby look respectable and responsible and you wouldn't have to worry about it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#49352: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:00:49 PM

Fighteer, that sounds uncomfortably like the people who say "Well if blacks would simply stop wearing their jeans too big and listening to rap, then people would stop discriminating against them."

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49353: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:06:34 PM

Frankly I think that blacks who get into gangsta, wave guns around, and blast rap music glorifying killing police officers do themselves a vast disservice in the public credibility department. Same basic principle, different culture.

edited 13th Feb '13 1:06:53 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TamH70 Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#49354: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:06:47 PM

[up][up][up]What, like this video by Penn and Teller?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YY5Rj4cQ50

Which makes things plain enough for even a fick as pigpoo Brit to understand.

edited 13th Feb '13 1:07:11 PM by TamH70

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#49355: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:10:11 PM

What Fighteer is talking about are people like Ted Nuget whose advocacy for the Second Amendment is linked with the idea that the Amendment is primarily for the purposes of defending against a tyrannical government. Unsurprisingly, given that interpretation of the Amendment, there's definite overlap between that crowd and those who are more supportive of the Confederacy.

This has its own historical issues, but what makes this a problem is that because these people are otherwise heavy supporters of conservative policies, basically, the result is that their trigger fingers get itchy in reaction to every Democratic/Obama policy. As a Democrat, it often feels like people of this ilk are looking for an excuse to engage in violence, or at best, are very poor judges of what qualifies as tyranny and aren't willing to play ball like normal people and change policy within the system.

Note, I really don't think this is the ideology of most gun owners, but it is pretty much the viewpoint endorsed by the NRA as an organization. I'm not positive of Republican politicians who endorse this view (guessing its true of the guy who invited Nuget to the State of the Union), but this has been expressed by certain Republican candidates.

edited 13th Feb '13 1:20:54 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#49356: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:20:37 PM

Frankly I think that blacks who get into gangsta, wave guns around, and blast rap music glorifying killing police officers do themselves a vast disservice in the public credibility department. Same basic principle, different culture.

Except that that is a very small subset of black America and generalizing a whole ethnic group on one such subset is equally stupid as judging the overwhelming majority of safe law-abiding gun owners by a couple of reactionaries and the one in a thousand lunatic who shoots people.

edited 13th Feb '13 1:20:56 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49357: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:24:36 PM

[up][up] This, pretty much. My concern is not that the general public will rise up in support of these nutcases, but rather that the nutcases believe that they will — if their responses to the mere possibility of gun control laws is this hyperbolic, I wouldn't put it past them to actually start killing people should meaningful progress be made.

[up] Of course I know they aren't representative of the entire race or culture. Just like the white gun nuts, however, they add fuel to anyone seeking a reason to be prejudiced against them. Unlike the white gun nuts, however, they don't have a massive political machine with vast amounts of money working to get laws passed blatantly favoring them. (Maybe they should, but that's a completely different discussion.)

edited 13th Feb '13 1:25:35 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#49358: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:26:09 PM

I get that. But at what point does the person with the prejudice have a responsibility to Do The Research?

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Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#49359: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:32:34 PM

[awesome][up]

Schild und Schwert der Partei
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#49360: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:38:37 PM

@Max: Well, if you look at the Republicans... never?

Seriously, most of their rhetoric is flat out incorrect.

edited 13th Feb '13 1:38:55 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#49361: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:45:46 PM

Damn DG, now you too are gonna rain on my Republican parade?? tongue

It was an honor
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#49362: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:48:25 PM

[up] Hey, I grew up in the reddest state in the Union. tongue

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#49363: Feb 13th 2013 at 1:58:44 PM

[up] And somehow you're more hippy than Scriblerian! [lol]

Interesting aside, I met an attractive lady from Oklahoma yesterday. She was fine. Fine, and completely disinterested.

It was an honor
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#49364: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:03:58 PM

[up] It's because Scrib was born and raised in Washington State, with a loving family who had a strong sense of moral justice. He actually used to be a Republican until the Tea Party got up here and he realized how crazy the GOP had gotten while he wasn't looking.

My family is full of hardcore Tea Partiers, who think the GOP isn't going far enough.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#49365: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:05:09 PM

My family is full of hardcore Tea Partiers, who think the GOP isn't going far enough.

Do I even want to know what their definition of "far enough" is?

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DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#49366: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:05:38 PM

[up] They think Santorum was a moderate?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#49367: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:07:20 PM

[up]

What is this I don't even-

(*powers down)

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49368: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:13:08 PM

@Starship Maxima: I think that any subculture which glorifies violence (e.g., gangsta rap with its bling, cars, drugs, women, and guns) is damaging to both the people who engage in that subculture and the perception of the group within the greater culture. It's not just a black thing; gangsta appeals to white and latino kids, and it's even spread to Asian media. I see it as something of a complement to redneck gun culture: both seem to glorify violence and resistance to "the man". Neither is healthy.

Edit: Not all gangsta is violent, but the parts that are ("Cop Killa", anyone?) give a really bad impression to people who aren't immersed in it.

edited 13th Feb '13 2:27:44 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#49369: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:17:35 PM

@ Fighteer: That's the problem with the BATFE, they're -supposed- to be the authority on firearms, but their job is to regulate firearm commerce, and have then been re-purposed to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. However, time and time again, has their current agency been shown to be completely incompetent at the task, as Fast and Furious has shown, and several incidents from Waco and on.

These are the same people who made the claim that plastic airsoft guns could be converted into real machine guns, with zero proof.

So no, you don't want them involved in the conversation until they get a meaningful goal or they get restructured.

You can blame their hamstringing or whatever, but they have repeatedly been given federal authority in many manners, and what authority they do have has not been put to meaningful use.

edited 13th Feb '13 2:22:54 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#49370: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:21:52 PM

I'd settle for just changing the culture to the point where people stop making out gun owners to be unfairly victimized when they do something foolish and face consequences for it.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49371: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:22:06 PM

@Devil Take Me: And who is responsible, precisely, for the neutering of BATFE? *Ding!* It's Congress, driven by the NRA. So the NRA is pushing under-the-table legislation to strip the federal organization responsible for policing its members of power and effectiveness. That doesn't strike you as the least bit corrupt? No conflict of interest there at all?

I would offer that we can have a competent, empowered BATFE if we were to put the effort into creating one.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#49372: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:27:40 PM

Who cares if it was the NRA? As far as I'm concerned, the NRA was justified in balancing out the ATF.

The BATFE, for its part, has been long noted to try and turn law-abiding citizens into criminals in order to justify their payroll. The agency only exists because the government threw the agency a bone after Prohibition, and in the years after it, they've turned to underhanded schemes in order to stay afloat.

While the bureaucratic part of the ATF is fair to the American people, the special agents have thus far, been pretty incompetent as far as the public eye has seen.

I'm saying that the ATF needs to be restructured before we give them more power.

edited 13th Feb '13 2:28:11 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49373: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:28:37 PM

So hire more, train them properly, and put the agency under competent leadership. These are powers allotted to the President and to Congress. The NRA explicitly does not want a competent Federal agency overseeing them, because it regards any regulation, oversight, or restrictions on gun owners or sellers whatsoever to be a violation of the Second Amendment.

The NRA is the primary problem here, not the BATFE.

I would also point out that confirmation bias means that the failures and cock-ups are what get reported the most, not the everyday competence of the agency, whatever that may be. Look at the furor and finger pointing that happened when GSA put on a Vegas bash. That does not speak to the day to day competency of GSA, just to a monumental lapse of judgement among its leadership.

[down] More specifically, "The BATFE was full of idiots because we put a bunch of idiots in charge of it, then we blamed them for failing and used it as an excuse to take away all of their power." The logic is really quite sound if you understand the premise behind it.

edited 13th Feb '13 2:46:50 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#49374: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:43:09 PM

Yeah, I don't understand why the NRA doesn't want the government looking into gun violence. The only way that the government can stop making stupid regulations is for them to know more about guns and how they're used.

I don't get the logic of "BATFE was full of idiots, therefore we don't want people researching guns"?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#49375: Feb 13th 2013 at 2:47:13 PM

@ Fighteer: That's exactly what I just said. Before you enhance their powers, restructure the ATF. Change the leadership, and set meaningful goals other than to make arrests and look like they're doing their jobs.

Let the CDC do their job first, then we can talk about how to make the ATF capable of dealing with the situation. That's what we want, right?

I don't mean to sound critical, but the NRA isn't the only voice in this discussion. I don't care much for the NRA's position in this manner, but they are still just a lobbying group at the end of the day, I am much more concerned with the ATF, who has the history of actual practical abuse of their authority. Whatever power you ascribe to the NRA is just politics at play, and doesn't lend to whatever practical application the legislation will merit.

Whatever judgement the ATF has had in the last three decades has been relatively poor, as seen in quite a number of committees over the years.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!

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