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Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49126: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:05:45 PM

Gitmo is just one of several black site prisons, but let's say I can't remove all prisons.

Instead of torture, I'd go for the Stockholm Syndrome. Trust is stronger than fear. Trust is safer than anger.

If they like you, they'll trust you. If they trust you, they'll reveal whatever secrets they supposedly, allegedly hold. If they don't have any secrets, let 'em go.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:06:36 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49127: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:08:14 PM

Well, I feel like the torture cat is out of the bag at this point. We've done a lovely job making more potential terrorists with Gitmo. I mean, I'd love to say "Close Gitmo, let them all go" but...I'm not sure how practical that is.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49128: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:10:29 PM

It's only "not practical" because you're unsure of how many are actually innocent instead of guilty.

As it stands, there are more innocent than guilty in Gitmo.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49129: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:14:38 PM

Innocent or guilty, after all they've been through, they're going to want (and very likely try to get) revenge against the US once they're released.

Edit: And I don't really consider "Let them all go, and pray they don't come back with bombs" a viable solution. Perhaps something like life parole? Wonder how many of them (the confirmed innocent) would accept some sort of deal. Something like "We let you go, move your family wherever you want. We'll pay you enough that you, and your family will be set for life" (And keep them monitored closely.)

edited 9th Feb '13 8:18:11 PM by DrTentacles

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49130: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:19:42 PM

That's fine, but if they want revenge, I'd allow them to take revenge.

An eye for an eye, I will allow, even if it's against me.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:19:50 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49131: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:21:46 PM

That's great for you.

You willing to risk 50, 100, 1000, more deaths because you let someone go? How many lives is one person's freedom worth?

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49132: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:23:35 PM

How will we even be certain that they'll take revenge?

I mean, Osama Bin Laden was originally an ally of the Mujaheddin fighters in Afghanistan - guys that we trained, equipped and funded. Look what he turned into. Look what the Mujaheddin turned into.

You don't find stories about widowed wives or orphaned kids attacking Americans. You hear stories like the Mujaheddin turning into the Taliban.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:24:44 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49133: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:26:21 PM

We can't. And that's the terrifying/difficult bit. We should release them. It's not right to keep them. However, they've been brutalized and tortured. At least some, if not most will want revenge. (Weather or not they'll take it is the difficult bit. Many will likely just want to be left alone for the rest of their life.)

But you start wondering "What if the next time I see this guy's face, it's after he's driven a plane into the Empire State Building. I would be my fault. I would be responsible (indirectly) for those deaths."

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49134: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:28:42 PM

We're already responsible for murdering people overseas. We create our own enemies and justify attacks on people we think, might attack us later, partly because of what we did to them beforehand, and we're scared of retribution 'cause we don't like consequences rearing their ugly heads to us.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:31:47 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49135: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:34:07 PM

When consequences involve thousands of American civilians, you can't blame us for being terrified. The real question is, how much caution is too much?

You still haven't answered what you'd do if you have supreme power of Gitmo. Or what you think of my "Bribing them not to kill us while trying to watch them" example.

(Also, perhaps if you released them, and kept a close eye on them, they could lead us to other terrorist cells.)

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49136: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:37:13 PM

When consequences involve thousands of Middle-Eastern lives, or even Hispanic lives, nobody in America talks about it.

I already answered your question about Gitmo. Stockholm Syndrome. I already answered your question about bribing them not to kill us - I don't want that because I feel it's better to just leave them alone, since they won't be able to do a thing to us anyway.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:38:03 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#49137: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:39:34 PM

You think that Stockholm Syndrome would make them not hate America? Because that is pretty stupendously silly, actually.

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49138: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:40:16 PM

We did that to the Nazis. We were able to get incredibly useful information from that, without needing to break their bones.

It also played a part in Nuremberg trials, once we learned who was involved in what and who knew about what.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:40:48 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49139: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:40:57 PM

All nations put the lives of their own citizens over the lives of another country. That's their responsibly as a nation. If you don't, then

a) You shouldn't be waging war

and

b) You're going to get conquered very soon by someone who does.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49140: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:41:52 PM

[up][up] No. We bribed the Nazis to our side. So they wouldn't side with the Russians. We gave them money, and amnesty.

And we hadn't tortured them and detained them for over a decade.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:42:42 PM by DrTentacles

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#49141: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:42:02 PM

Innocents and Guilty got put in a Prison/Jail for a long time. Of course they're going to want revenge. Every single person? Probably not.

But it's not a risk worth taking here. Not when it puts innocents on the line. I'm not willing to risk other people to let them go. Risking your own neck is one thing, but everybody else? That's ludicrous.

Unless we can compensate them, they have little chance of being let go. And yes, compensation is key after we've put them through.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:42:36 PM by Irene

Shadow?
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49142: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:43:23 PM

[up][up] Stockholm Syndrome was the wrong term for it, then. Compensation, I guess, fits better.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#49143: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:45:29 PM

Releasing them without some level of compensation, assuming they get released at all, is the only reasonable way to go about it. To release them without recourse is a greater cruelty than keeping them imprisoned.

As for whatever Serocco is saying, Stockholm Syndrome leads to sympathy with your captors, not their boss. It could more reasonably lead to greater hatred of America for making such nice men as Mr. Guard hurt the prisoner do terribly.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:45:48 PM by OhnoaBear

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49144: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:55:46 PM

"Greater hatred of America" has already been accomplished.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49145: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:58:44 PM

Yes. Which they have no ability to express.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49146: Feb 9th 2013 at 9:00:55 PM

[up] So why are you so concerned about them attacking us later?

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49148: Feb 9th 2013 at 9:04:42 PM

I'm talking about the people in Gitmo. Who are you talking about?

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#49149: Feb 9th 2013 at 9:07:52 PM

[up] If you were talking about Gitmo, then I guess you meant they were the ones that couldn't express their "greater hatred" of America. Those same prisoners that you wanted to track in case they did express their "greater hatred" of America.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#49150: Feb 9th 2013 at 11:54:38 PM

...can we break this down into a simple "positive and negative" list about releasing them?

  • Positive
    • Morally right because they have been tortured
    • Legally right because most have never had a trial
  • Negative
    • They likely hate us by now.
    • We don't know how dangerous they are
    • They could come back and kill civilians/our military
      • Oh, and you will be blamed for those deaths if they do

It comes down to morals: Is it more morally right to set them free? Or to protect our citizens from potential (and predictable) harm?

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!

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