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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#49051: Feb 8th 2013 at 12:51:23 PM

I don't know, outlawing tobacco just doesn't sound liberal.

The way I understand the terms is that conservatively means "carefully" and liberally means "freely creatively".

When you play chess and you're trying to keep your pieces safe and possible actions predictable, you're playing conservatively. This contrasts with playing boldly, where you take risks to go on offense and create opportunities for chess tactics.

Liberally might be like trying to use a university classroom to host various different events by having game night or slumber party, instead of just traditional lectures. You're being less "set" about the identity of a tool and getting more unorthodox use out of it (it's not as good of an example and a better one doesn't come to mind).

Banning tobacco doesn't sound like creative. Maybe it's liberal to try different laws, this and that, to limit tobacco and handle commerce and even take advantage of its usage.

edited 8th Feb '13 12:54:12 PM by Trivialis

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#49052: Feb 8th 2013 at 12:55:53 PM

Liberals try new things. Conservatives are cautious toward new things. Radicals seek radical change. Reactionaries seek to return to the past.

A liberal solution to crime is rehabilitation. A conservative solution to crime is prison. A radical solution to crime is changing the system to no longer promote anti-social action. A reactionary solution to crime is the death penalty.

edited 8th Feb '13 12:59:12 PM by deathpigeon

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#49053: Feb 8th 2013 at 12:59:59 PM

What would you call someone who wants to change things in a new way, but that have no long-term benefits whatsoever?

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#49054: Feb 8th 2013 at 1:01:12 PM

[up]No one would want to do that in their own minds; that's just up for others to judge. When you propose something you want good, whether it's change or status quo.

These terminologies are based on a person's attitude towards an issue, not whether the solution is actually a good one.

edited 8th Feb '13 1:01:54 PM by Trivialis

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#49055: Feb 8th 2013 at 2:23:08 PM

@Deppy: I'd say that in your analogy, a radical would advocate getting rid of the concept of crime.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#49056: Feb 8th 2013 at 2:32:09 PM

No, no. Radicals seek to change the system such that anti-social activity is not encouraged and is discouraged. Merely getting rid of the concept of crime wouldn't go far enough. Almost every radical's solution starts with "change the system". A radical's solution to poverty? Change the system such that people are more equal and/or there is no money to make people poor by not having. A radical's solution to environmental degradation? Change the system to get rid of the root causes of environmental degradation such as over competition.

Seriously, merely removing the concept of crime is not more of a change than changing the whole system.

edited 8th Feb '13 2:37:34 PM by deathpigeon

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#49057: Feb 8th 2013 at 2:46:24 PM

@Trivialis: When "liberal" and "conservative" are used as political terms, they don't mean the same things that they do in other contexts.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#49058: Feb 8th 2013 at 2:49:07 PM

The political terms derive from the non-political uses of them. Liberals seek change liberally. Conservatives seek change conservatively.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#49059: Feb 8th 2013 at 3:01:57 PM

Exactly. If they don't mean even remotely the same thing, then that's not normal. Something is wrong. And it gets problematic when those words proceed to get used in name-calling.

edited 8th Feb '13 3:02:42 PM by Trivialis

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#49060: Feb 8th 2013 at 3:03:56 PM

They mean similar things, but I agree that using them as insults is dumb.

Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#49061: Feb 8th 2013 at 4:29:15 PM

At least those terms are better than "left" or "right". I can never keep those two strait in relation to politics.

edited 8th Feb '13 4:30:15 PM by Belian

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#49062: Feb 8th 2013 at 4:33:22 PM

We're treading politics, especially liberalism/conservatism as a sliding scale again. It's probably best to use either a two, or even three axis system.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#49063: Feb 8th 2013 at 4:33:37 PM

"Left" and "Right" refer to drastically different things than "Liberal" and "Conservative". Left refers to economic systems that are more communal, while right refers to economic systems that are more individualistic. Capitalism is the archetypal right economic system while communism is the archetypal left economic system.

Related, there is the axis of authoritarian vs libertarian.

edited 8th Feb '13 4:47:17 PM by deathpigeon

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#49064: Feb 9th 2013 at 12:09:57 AM

By the way, are there increasing numbers of Independent Voters?

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49065: Feb 9th 2013 at 9:08:26 AM

Everything I've seen indicates the opposite: the electorate is getting more fixed in their views and that margin of truly undecided voters is getting smaller. More of the effort is in getting your side to get out and vote.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#49066: Feb 9th 2013 at 10:02:50 AM

Actually, Fighteer, there is an increasing number of 'independents', as people are finding themselves getting shoved out of the Republican party by it's increasing extremism. Most of them still vote Republican, but they're generally moderates who are having a hard time calling themselves Republicans.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#49067: Feb 9th 2013 at 10:19:07 AM

Well, as far as politics are concerned, you are who you vote for.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#49068: Feb 9th 2013 at 10:33:16 AM

I did hear from one political text that independents are the fastest-growing demographic out of the political groups, though that might be state-specific.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#49069: Feb 9th 2013 at 10:43:54 AM

They are the fastest growing group, but it's almost entirely former Republicans. That's part of why Romney was so sure he was going to win actually. In general, to the Independent vote go the spoils. What he didn't realise was, that the Republicans were actually haemorrhaging members so the number of Independents was actually bloated with the base he was counting on. Basically it caused him to double count the votes he could expect.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#49070: Feb 9th 2013 at 10:47:53 AM

Ah, that makes sense. Though I wonder why they voted for Romney if they were leaving the Republican Party.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49072: Feb 9th 2013 at 12:24:28 PM

That is indeed a sensible notion. Also, Romney lost big time in Pennsylvania and other "voter ID" states in part because the Democrats were able to drum up lots of support due to outrage over the attempts to disenfranchise people. There's no better way to get people to vote than to tell them that someone is going to try to take their votes away.

edited 9th Feb '13 12:24:38 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#49073: Feb 9th 2013 at 1:38:18 PM

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again: Part of the reason for our low turn-out rate is that we (as a country)have always been able to vote. If we were able to prevent people from voting one time, even if it is for a local/extreemly small election, the next one would have a positively massive turnout.

Also, I think there should be news articles about what people vote for in the off-season elections and the consiquences of those votes. AKA: the importance of desissions people don't even know were being made. That would probably bring more people out to vote on those things.

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#49074: Feb 9th 2013 at 2:53:09 PM

If who I vote for is what party I represent, what does that say if I've consistently been voting for no one? Definitely voting, but choosing "None of the Above".

The whole Voter ID thing: It applies to everything else that people are likely to do, be it the exercise of rights or the various vices people have. This is happening with guns right now with all the talk of possible bans, etc.

For example, when you put up "No Smoking" signs, people who wouldn't normally think about smoking actually start to think about smoking, and so most tobacco companies haven't exactly gone out of business (they literally saved money by not putting up advertising, yet their business is still operating and is more profitable now than ever before).

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#49075: Feb 9th 2013 at 3:27:06 PM

If you're voting for no one it says you're basically handing victory to the guy you don't want in charge.

Also, I think your "no smoking sign" example is a bit faulty, due to the fact that if you smoke somewhere there's a sign you can get fined and removed from the area. And that such signs don't really have an effect on non smokers such as myself who aren't inclined to smoke anyway. The signs aren't there to take away a right, they're there to keep the air clean in a particular area. Taking away voting rights harms the entire populace by eliminating our ability to take part in the democratic process and express ourselves.

The guns rights activists seem to be primarily motivated by the NRA, and the spokespeople for that group have lost their credibility as far as I'm concerned.


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