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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48851: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:45:19 AM

You do realize that the government still leaks information about itself anyway, right?

They're not tried for treason, because they're effectively bragging about whatever they're leaking.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48852: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:46:00 AM

@Sledgesaul: For the umpteenth time, the drones are just the methodology. The fact that there isn't a human being piloting the aircraft from inside it is meaningless from a moral or ethical perspective. It matters only operationally.

What should be concerning Congress is the policy of extrajudicial killing itself, not the means by which the policy is executed.

As for the leaks game, it's exactly that — a game of dodgems played between the administration and the press. There are "official" channels and "unofficial" channels, plus the problem of figuring out which leaks are planned and which are someone with a genuine beef. At a certain point it ceases to matter.

edited 6th Feb '13 6:47:51 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48853: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:47:40 AM

If the first term was about Obamacare, then the second term will be about the drone strikes, or hell, all of Obama's foreign policy.

edited 6th Feb '13 6:47:51 AM by Sledgesaul

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48854: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:48:42 AM

Yes, the fact that Obama is doing a better job of fighting the War on Terror than we did under Bush. That'll really give Congress something meaty to chew on, now won't it?

"Hey, you! Black guy in the White House! Stop doing things the way we want them done! It's really hurting our self-image!"

edited 6th Feb '13 6:49:27 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48855: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:50:08 AM

If by "better job", you mean "higher death toll", then yeah, he's doing a much finer job than Bush.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48856: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:52:07 AM

Bush started two wars. I'm quite sure that his aggregate body count is higher than Obama's. Given 9/11, his civilian body count is higher too. What exactly is your point? Was Obama supposed to be Mister Peace and Love?

I don't like extrajudicial killings either, but if we are going to fight terrorists, we have to fight them. If we aren't, then fine, let's leave. But you can't have it both ways.

edited 6th Feb '13 6:53:39 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48858: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:52:43 AM

You do realize that the government still leaks information about itself anyway, right?

Yes and those are official leaks that have been carefully consider and debated on by those in high position. They are not the press secretary deciding to go against procedure and answer a question that he's been ordered not to.

There is a difference between a government leaking something and a governed official leaking something. The first is the government playing the information game and using back channels, the second in someone going on a person crusade against the wishes of their superiors.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48859: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:54:22 AM

"Carefully considered and debated?"

The reason we even know about the drone strikes comes from leaks on how they're operated. That constitutes as more "bragging" than anything else.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48860: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:55:21 AM

You think Bush caused 9/11?
You think Obama caused Benghazi? This is the problem: there is an inherent Double Standard here. You seem to believe that, just because Obama is a Democrat, different standards apply when judging his prosecution of foreign policy.

Either the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are bad, or they are not. Either extrajudicial killings are bad, or they are not. Either civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists are bad, or they are not. Either torture is bad, or it is not. By any application of those standards, Bush was worse than Obama.

edited 6th Feb '13 6:57:06 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48861: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:56:23 AM

No, you said "Given 9/11, his civilian body count is higher."

That implies you feel that Bush caused 9/11.

edited 6th Feb '13 6:57:29 AM by Sledgesaul

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48862: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:57:54 AM

Yes but it's carefully considered bragging. grin I'm not saying all government leaks are right or that all leaks by individual officials are wrong, but an official leaking something related to military intelligence is a big deal and not something to be done lightly.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48863: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:57:59 AM

[up][up]He was President when it happened. That gives blaming him for it exactly as much legitimacy as it does to blame Obama for Benghazi.

edited 6th Feb '13 6:58:09 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48864: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:59:56 AM

Obama had no involvement in Benghazi. The Republicans cut funding for embassy security, so the fault lies on them.

[up][up] If the government keeps secrets from us, they do not deserve to be in office.

edited 6th Feb '13 7:00:55 AM by Sledgesaul

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#48865: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:03:15 AM

@Sledgesaul: He can be blamed for not having instituted good enough national security measures to prevent 9/11. It has been brought up several times that the CIA/FBI had had actual warnings about possible terrorist attacks around that time, but some massive bureaucratic flaw or the other caused the higher command echelons to miss the otherwise-obvious red flags.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48866: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:04:21 AM

I always wondered why they ignored the warnings. Maybe they didn't think it was a problem. Maybe they were looking to take advantage of the fallout from an attack. Maybe they didn't care. Maybe they were stupid.

edited 6th Feb '13 7:04:44 AM by Sledgesaul

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48867: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:05:04 AM

[up][up][up] You do realise that a system of total transparency would render any and all covert operations completely useless. Anything the government is willing to let me know is also something that they are letting their enemies know. Sometimes you need to keep things secret from the enemy, and yes that means keeping them secret from your own people. Our world is so interconnected that anything you or I know is going to be something that terrorists know, that Russia knows, that China knows, that Iran know, that North Korea knows, that everyone knows.

edited 6th Feb '13 7:05:16 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48868: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:06:11 AM

The only enemies they're making are the people they're pissing off, which includes their voters.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48869: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:07:17 AM

I'm sorry, what? Does your understanding of the world end at the physical borders of the United States, Sledgesaul? I'm not sure what planet you think you're living on, where total government transparency would magically end all global conflicts and stop people from wanting to fight each other.

edited 6th Feb '13 7:08:02 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48870: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:08:03 AM

That was an insinuation that the United States makes its own enemies.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48871: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:08:57 AM

[up][up][up] Yes but that becomes a problem when the people you are pissing of are unreasonable assholes who want to blow you up for not being exactly like them. So unless you want the government to cave to everyone and anyone it's going to have enemies, and there is going to be things that need to be kept from those enemies, and thus kept from you.

Edit: [up] It does, but it only makes some (what amount is debatable) by doing things that we consider bad. It makes others by doing things we consider good.

edited 6th Feb '13 7:10:49 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48872: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:11:10 AM

Ahmadinejad is an unreasonable asshole, but he's not at all interested in attacking America.

Doesn't stop Congress from bleeding it dry with sanctions and threatening war with it over the lie that it has nukes.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48873: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:13:06 AM

You honestly believe that Iran isn't trying to acquire nuclear weapons, Sledgesaul? And what about North Korea?

edited 6th Feb '13 7:13:50 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48874: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:14:06 AM

They're not. Even US Intelligence agrees with me.

North Korea is the ugly stepchild of the world, sulking in shame over how everyone laughs at it and punishing itself when it tries to doubt its competence. It'll commit suicide eventually, while we continue to laugh at it.

edited 6th Feb '13 7:20:38 AM by Sledgesaul

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#48875: Feb 6th 2013 at 7:19:19 AM

We can debate exact examples all day long. But are you honestly saying that the US has no enemies that are not caused by its own assholery?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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