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Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#48401: Jan 29th 2013 at 6:31:16 AM

I never got the JFK thing. He was okay but he certainly wasn't the greatest president ever. I'd rank him at a 7/10 which is about what I give Obama.

FDR is one of my favorites though.

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#48402: Jan 29th 2013 at 6:47:46 AM

And if you look at Teddy Roosevelt's policies, you wouldn't recognize him as a Republican today. Trustbusting, regulations on clean food and drugs, regulation of railroads and promotion of labor unions. I don't think he made religion a public issue either. He was also a prolific author and intellectual. If he ran today, he'd be labeled an elitist socialist atheist.

edited 29th Jan '13 6:50:45 AM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#48403: Jan 29th 2013 at 7:19:00 AM

[up]Yup. For all his flaws (and, by gum, he had 'em) he comes across as what would be a Democrat these days. And, one of the Coolest Old Uncles you could care to have. Even if just spending an hour in his company would probably tire you out for three days. [lol]

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#48404: Jan 29th 2013 at 7:29:55 AM

The left does tend to be rather forgiving of a certain mass internment on FDR's part. Probably because associating the rest of his policies with that would be fallacious.

Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#48405: Jan 29th 2013 at 7:34:27 AM

Well, you ARE supposed to learn from history. Might as well focus on worked and how to improve it.

Of course, you also have to keep what didn't work in the back of your mind in order to not repeat it.

By the way... when has lowering taxes been proven to help the economy as a whole?

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48406: Jan 29th 2013 at 7:36:51 AM

when has lowering taxes been proven to help the economy as a whole?
We've been having a go at that in the economics thread. Feel free to jump in. To summarize, there is virtually no time at which lowering taxes on the wealthy helps the economy, but plenty of evidence that lowering them on the poor does help.

On the other point, it's rather difficult for me to picture people on the left engaging in hero worship of their political icons, at least in the same way that people on the right appear to. Certainly I hold no religious reverence for JFK, FDR, etc.; I respect those policies of theirs that worked while acknowledging those that did not.

edited 29th Jan '13 7:38:17 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#48407: Jan 29th 2013 at 7:48:21 AM

JFK was probably the most likable president even if his foreign policy wasn't the best.

Also Roosevelt may domestically have been a modern Dem,but on foreign policy,the guy was a Bush style neo-con.

A better example of turn of the 20th politicians that fit the Democrat label would be William Jennings Bryan and the Populist party.

Sure Bryan would be a Republican by social standards,but economically him,Alton Parker, and the Populist party pretty much started the first regulation-based economy. And he was part of the Anti Imperialist league which is a league that definitely fits leftist foreign policy better than rightist.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#48408: Jan 29th 2013 at 8:43:49 AM

"Also Roosevelt may domestically have been a modern Dem, but on foreign policy, the guy was a Bush style neo-con."

Do you mean Teddy Roosevelt or FDR here? I'm thinking the former (in which case, I can see where you are coming from), but wanted to make sure.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#48409: Jan 29th 2013 at 8:51:45 AM

Probably both, but Teddy was probably more centrist simply due to the fact thar he didn't want to start a war cause he would run off to fight in it.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#48410: Jan 29th 2013 at 10:59:53 AM

The Roosevelts are easily my favorite Presidents.

In spite of their flaws, they did quite a lot against the rich, against corporations, against bankers. You'll never see something like that in this day and age.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#48411: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:11:54 AM

Even if you don't know or care that Ayn Rand was an atheist, one of the most distinctive tenents of Objectivism is that it views charity as, at best, unimportant, and, at worst, a blight on society. That's virtually impossible to reconcile with the tenents of Christianity; the New Testament might as well be called "Why Charity Work Is Awesome".

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#48412: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:13:33 AM

I personally don't think it's really fitting of the name "objectivism".

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#48413: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:30:27 AM

Republicans wanna screw over Democrat-friendly executives.

It's a lot less worse than I make it seem, trust me.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48414: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:35:15 AM

Um, what? That's not what the article says. That bill is pretty much 100% positive for people wanting to rein in excesses in the financial markets.

edited 29th Jan '13 11:35:24 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#48415: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:37:25 AM

[up] I took that article to mean that Republicans are basically threatening the CEOs to play ball more with the GOP, because at this point, the Democrats are a more valuable asset to CEOs than Republicans.

edited 29th Jan '13 11:45:46 AM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#48416: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:48:11 AM

[up][up][up][up] Isn't actual objectivism the belief that there are objective truths that remain the same regardless of one's personal beliefs?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48417: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:49:13 AM

[up][up] Maybe. It seems like it's being expressed as a threat: stop demanding tax decreases and entitlement cuts and putting us in an awkward negotiating position, or we'll do what the Democrats want.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#48418: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:51:22 AM

That is what they're doing. The GOP is throwing a hissy fit so they can intimidate Wall Street back under their umbrella.

One GOP operative said that the CEOs can kill that bill by having the Democrats insist that the taxes are higher, when in fact the taxes are lower.

edited 29th Jan '13 11:52:03 AM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#48419: Jan 29th 2013 at 11:56:23 AM

@Zendervai

That's what I was thinking, something that stands out against subjectivism/relativism. Wikipedia calls it "objectivity". Ayn Rand's Objectivism is nowhere found in the article.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#48420: Jan 29th 2013 at 12:17:20 PM

Camp's bill would establish a new tax regime for derivatives, requiring banks to declare the fair market value of the products at the end of each year. Any increase in value would be considered corporate income, subject to taxation. It's a more aggressive tax treatment than Wall Street enjoys for either derivatives or for trading in more traditional securities.
OH MY GOD WHY ARE WE NOT DOING THIS?

Dave Camp is the first white Republican male whose hand I've wanted to shake in a while.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#48421: Jan 29th 2013 at 12:17:26 PM

Well, from what I understand, Objectivism does have that as part of the metaphysical part of the philosophy. It's just that it's the political and moral part that gets wrapped up with the Libertarians and the Republicans and the things they do and say, so that part gets a LOT more attention since that's the part that's affecting us. The whole philosophy basically urges people to do what's best for you instead of the group. It's individualism in the extreme, and accounting for other people can be varying sorts of impractical, immoral, or whatever. (Remember, altruism had a slightly different meaning when she was alive, and she thought it was completely impossible to practice. Doesn't make her any less of a deluded, selfish bitch, though.)

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#48422: Jan 29th 2013 at 12:32:05 PM

Any increase in value would be considered corporate income, subject to taxation.

OK, so if the value of their held derivatives goes down, would they be allowed to claim a deduction? And who determines the "fair market value" of derivatives? You could ascertain that from the listed prices of ordinary things like stock options, but is there a ready market for other forms of derivatives? Also would this apply to individuals holding stock or derivatives? Like if I own 500 shares of Apple, and their prices goes up $50 a share but I don't sell, do I get a tax bill for $2,500?

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48423: Jan 29th 2013 at 12:36:41 PM

OK, so if the value of their held derivatives goes down, would they be allowed to claim a deduction?
As I understand it from the article, this is actually standard practice. If your derivatives go down in value, sell them, claim the deduction on current taxes, then immediately repurchase them.

I doubt this would affect standard stockholders, as stocks sales are realized under existing capital gains laws.

edited 29th Jan '13 12:37:13 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#48424: Jan 29th 2013 at 12:37:01 PM

I tend to be ambivalent about taxing non-realized income, but I can see the argument for it. If all of your income is in the form of capital gains, then you're being paid stock dividends so while your net worth rose spectacularly, your actual realized income didn't. Consequentially, if you liquidate those stocks, if you paid taxes on the capital gains, you wouldn't pay taxes again for the realized earnings, which is good because that creates weird incentives to avoid trading.

In any event, a realized loss-that is, selling a security at a rate lower than the rate it was acquired at-is definitely a capital loss, and that should be tax deductible.

[up] Ahh, yes. That. If you tax people not on the basis of realized income/cash flow but on wealth holdings, then whether they sell the security or not is irrelevant due to the ta effects. But, since we tax realized income, we have weird incentives to sell a security, claim it as a loss on your taxes, and purchase it again. Generally this is useful if you're in a higher tax bracket one year than another year.

edited 29th Jan '13 12:38:49 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#48425: Jan 29th 2013 at 12:45:26 PM

Simple solution: have it apply to corperate tax returns and not personal ones.

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!

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