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MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#48151: Jan 25th 2013 at 1:36:03 PM

Has the White House offered any preliminary responses to this new ruling?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#48153: Jan 25th 2013 at 1:43:35 PM

.... <insert Flat "What" and Face Palm at the Republican commentaries included in the article>

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#48154: Jan 25th 2013 at 1:46:16 PM

Don't recess appointments last only for a short time before Senate has to confirm them?

darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#48155: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:00:57 PM

Nope. Well, depends on your definition of "a short time". To quote Wiki:

To remain in effect a recess appointment must be approved by the Senate by the end of the next session of Congress, or the position becomes vacant again; in current practice this means that a recess appointment must be approved by roughly the end of the next calendar year.

Then again, most of that article doesn't cite any sources.

Nevermind, I found a better source, and Wiki is more or less correct: Recess Appointments FAQ, by the Congressional Research Service, bless their poor, under-appreciated souls.

http://www.senate.gov/CRSReports/crs-publish.cfm?pid='0DP%2BP%5CW%3B%20P%20%20%0A

edited 25th Jan '13 2:07:45 PM by darksidevoid

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#48156: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:03:47 PM

What I mean is, it looks like Richard Cordray has held the position for about a year now. You mean the Senate never confirmed him? That doesn't make sense.

I don't see what's the controversy here. Even if the recesses are valid, that just means the Senate will have to make the decision sooner or later.

Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#48157: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:07:41 PM

I read through a bunch of the comments. Only a couple mentioned the "contradicts 150 years of practice" line and basically none were supportive of the President. Considering how the only mildly supportive ones had more "thumbs down" than "thumbs up" I suspect that anything actually supportive got so many "thumbs down" that they were deleted.

Sort of hard to have a discussion when one side's comments, even the ones that are strictly factual and about the pocedure, are COMPLETELY drowned out by the other.

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#48158: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:11:22 PM

You expect a civilized and informative discussion in the comments section of a news story? I have some bad news for you... and maybe a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. :P

[up][up]The Senators probably see it as breaching their own powers, because let me tell you, those Senators like their power. Also, the Senators raising the fuss are pretty blatantly upset about the fact that Obama got any of his positions staffed at all, since otherwise his agencies wouldn't have been able to move forward with their assigned initiatives. In theory, Obama could just recess appoint the posts all over again and thereby evade the possibility of indefinite filibusters, and we can't have that, can we?

edited 25th Jan '13 2:16:15 PM by darksidevoid

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#48159: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:14:58 PM

The Constitution was not designed with the intention of allowing a legislative minority to indefinitely block a President's appointments. SCOTUS really needs to move on this issue, and yet I'm not sure that it has the power, Constitutionally, to compel Congress to hold votes.

edited 25th Jan '13 2:15:29 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#48160: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:36:42 PM

[up][up]Not really. I just expected some comments going the other way and not the complete take over of one viewpoint. It is how the comments that are not "hate-on/impeach the president/king/dictator" have been completely deleated that really got to me.

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#48161: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:53:50 PM

@ Fighteer:

The Constitution was not designed with the intention of allowing a legislative minority to indefinitely block a President's appointments. SCOTUS really needs to move on this issue, and yet I'm not sure that it has the power, Constitutionally, to compel Congress to hold votes.

Couldn't they just bypass Congress and Directly Appoint them? Isn't there an Act that could do that, an Emergency Powers Act or something?

Iran & Britain: It wouldn't work. Afghanistan and Iraq have proven to be very unpopular amongst the public, since there's no real reason to be there in the first place...

Keep Rolling On
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#48162: Jan 25th 2013 at 2:55:47 PM

Not without changing the Constitution. Remember, the US Constitution wasn't designed for 21st century and its political culture.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#48163: Jan 25th 2013 at 3:18:29 PM

Actually, considering it was meant to be a "living document" it was. It was meant to change with the times, as needed.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#48164: Jan 25th 2013 at 3:21:10 PM

Does it say that on the Constitution?

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#48165: Jan 25th 2013 at 3:25:49 PM

Be careful how you define "living". Explicit (amendment) changes and implicit (interpretive) changes are two different things.

I honestly think the president shouldn't try to bypass the Senate like this. The worst that could happen if the White House loses the case is that the president needs Senate advice and consent. That was the intent all along. If the Senate is being obstructive, that's a problem with Congress and not the executive. The problem should be fixed at the Senate instead of having a presidential overreach to try to cover it up. (By the way, the Senate isn't supposed to filibuster nominations in normal circumstances, by its own agreement.)

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#48166: Jan 25th 2013 at 3:37:16 PM

And we're okay with just ignoring all the precedent from past administrations in favor of penalizing the current president for the sake of a principle?

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#48167: Jan 25th 2013 at 3:44:41 PM

If the US government were operating on a parliamentary or semi-presidential system instead of a full-presidential one, would we have to deal with this major headache?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#48168: Jan 25th 2013 at 3:55:18 PM

[up][up][up]It may not "filibuster" them in technical terms, but it does allow indefinite, anonymous holds on any and all motions, including votes on executive appointments. That's essentially a filibuster in all but name, and the effect is identical. The filibuster as it exists doesn't even fulfill the original purpose of the rule which created it, and it's certainly not something imagined as necessary in the Constitution, unlike recess appointments, which are explicitly spelled out.

I strongly disagree with the notion that recess appointments of the kind we're discussing are "overreach" of any kind, particularly given that they're granted as an option to the President in Article II. It seems fairly clear that the reason for that is to make sure the President is able to do his duty in executing the law.

[up]Ahahahaha. No, we wouldn't have to deal with this headache, but the one we would have to deal with would be even worse, I'm sorry to say. The framers created the structure of our government in such a way that opposing sides and multiple branches would be forced to cooperate in order to get anything done, and in a way that was supposed to prevent too much power from being concentrated in too few hands. One of the major things wrong with our current system, in my opinion, is that the Republican leadership (sorry, have to name them as what they are, no way around it) is treating the Congress like a Parliament, instead of what it is and what it was intended to be. Also, I would place most of the blame for this transformation on Newt Gingrich. Thanks a lot, Newt.

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#48169: Jan 25th 2013 at 4:02:50 PM

Before I respond: I'm somewhat confused with the exact situation. How long were the appointments? The recess appointment's not allowed to continue when the Senate actually comes back and resumes exercising the right to advice and consent.

darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#48170: Jan 25th 2013 at 4:41:50 PM

The people in question were appointed January 4, 2012, during the time between the first and second sessions of the 112th Congress (although the Senators disputing the appointments claim that the Senate were still in pro forma session on that date). Recess appointments last until the sine die adjournment of the next session Congress after their appointment - or in other words, they lasted for around one year until the beginning of this month, after the 112th Congress passed the "Fiscal Cliff" band-aid and finally, finally adjourned a day before the start of the 113th Congress. That was January 7th or so. At present, Obama has renominated the officials we're talking about, so the question at hand is about whether their previous term (Jan 4, 2012 - Jan 7-ish, 2013) in their positions was valid.

edited 25th Jan '13 4:46:20 PM by darksidevoid

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48171: Jan 25th 2013 at 4:48:56 PM

John Kiriakou, the whistleblower on waterboarding, will now serve 30 months in prison for it.

darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#48172: Jan 25th 2013 at 5:08:42 PM

[up](Sources: ABC, CBS, NYT, WaPo)

The NYT one is the most informative of them all, mostly due to the fact that at least one of their journalists was involved.

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#48173: Jan 25th 2013 at 5:09:51 PM

[up][up]No, he was sentenced to 30 months for disclosing classified information. There's a tremendous difference between "whistleblowing" and "violating national security". He wasn't punished for saying "the United States is torturing people", he was punished for revealing specifics about the details of assignments of particular individuals when that information was classified.

You can argue that he was targeted for prosecution due to his whistleblowing, but he wasn't prosecuted for his whistleblowing.

edited 25th Jan '13 5:10:00 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#48174: Jan 25th 2013 at 5:10:46 PM

[up] Same thing, ultimately.

He was a former CIA agent, too.

Bluesqueak Since: Jan, 2010
#48175: Jan 25th 2013 at 5:12:27 PM

is treating the Congress like a Parliament

And Congress don't have the rules in place to operate like a Parliament. The only way the minority party can block legislation in a Parliament is by getting sufficient support from members of the majority party.

In addition, Parliamentary systems often stop ping-pong legislating by an unofficial understanding that anything contained in a party manifesto is considered to have been voted on by the electorate. When (to everyone's shock and surprise) a party actually keeps a manifesto pledge, the opposing party is therefore obliged to accept that legislation and not repeal it first chance they get.

Unless there's riots. You can repeal stuff if there's riots about it. evil grin

It ain't over 'till the ring hits the lava.

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