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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#47251: Jan 15th 2013 at 8:31:22 PM

nevermind

edited 15th Jan '13 8:39:04 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47252: Jan 15th 2013 at 8:35:32 PM

From my understanding of it the assault weapons ban is to ban "scary looking" guns. Which might be a valid purpose, but there's not really much actual factual difference between one and a hunting rifle. After all we take down game as big as us a lot. The difference between the hunting rifle and the assault rifle is mostly, well, the power fantasy associated with it.

Banning expanded magazines seems like a good idea though.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#47254: Jan 15th 2013 at 8:52:16 PM

[up]Good to know. But tighter regulation might prevent the mass shootings.

(Note: I might mess up the terminology a bit, but I think my comments get across)

A) "burst fire" is the way those weapons are usually used. It is much more accurate than full-auto and thus more deadly.

B) Why do you even need burst fire on your household or hunting gun? You should only need one shot to hit under normal circumstances.

Yes, they are slightly different on the inside. But, to use your car analogy, being hit by a normal car going 70mph is just as deadly as one with all the "bells and whistles" going 80mph. Why should they be regulated differently?

edited 15th Jan '13 8:53:22 PM by Belian

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#47255: Jan 15th 2013 at 8:55:50 PM

Why do you even need burst fire on your household or hunting gun?

BECAUSE IT'S AWESOME!

edited 15th Jan '13 9:01:36 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#47256: Jan 15th 2013 at 8:58:55 PM

"Assault weapon" is still being used arbitrarily.
This is my real problem with the current gun control debate.

There are two different problems really being discussed here. Mass shootings like what happened at Sandy Hook are much more visible tragedies and prompt much more national conversation on gun violence. That's one of the problems. The other is "normal" gun violence, which is much more widespread and gets much less media coverage. Which problem are you trying to solve, and how are you going to do it without infringing on the rights of reasonable, law-abiding gun owners (whose rights are, like it or not, constitutionally protected)?

If you're trying to prevent mass shootings, then I think that gun control is the wrong direction to approach it from. While not all mass shooters are "crazy" in the conventional sense, I believe that the vast majority of them do suffer from serious mental health issues (eg, they may be severely depressed, rather than psychotic or delusional). Making mental health care — including both diagnosis and treatment — universally available and affordable will do much more to curb such events than simply restricting access to guns. (Nevermind the fact that making mental health care universally available and affordable is a worthy goal in and of itself.)

If you're trying to prevent "conventional" shootings, then there are far better places to start than with "assault weapons" (whatever that actually means). Start by requiring background checks for all gun sales, period, without exception — specifically including both gun shows and private sales. Require all guns to be licensed to a specific entity at all points starting with it's manufacturer — you should be able to track a gun through its licensing information from the manufacturer, to a wholesaler, to a retailer, to a private individual, to another private individual the first one sold it to, etc etc. There would be legal consequences for anyone who cannot account for a gun that is licensed to them. The license-holder would also be partially culpable for any crime committed with that gun. It's not a perfect system (licensing information can be forged, identifying marks on guns can be destroyed, there would be a lot of guns around from before the system was implemented, etc), but it's a big damn improvement over what we have now. Best of all, it doesn't violate the second amendment.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#47257: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:11:34 PM

NRA targets Obama over daughters

THIS CAN'T POSSIBLY BACKFIRE!

edited 15th Jan '13 9:12:33 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#47258: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:20:57 PM

[up]Reiterating that I do support some level of armed security measures. But it's not like the children themselves carry "scary weapons", so I think what NRA points out is a different issue.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#47259: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:25:53 PM

"Assault weapons" is generally a meaningless term except by the ignorant.

In addition, assault weapons bans are near useless since what they ban usually has nothing to do with what actually shows up in crimes. The previous assault weapons ban banned approximately two percent (from memory) of the guns used in crimes of the time. And the steady decline of gun crime wasn't effected either. So the laws don't help, making them bad laws.

That the guns are not used that much in crime is, in fact, the point. If they're not used in crimes in more than a vanishingly small events, they should not be banned.

It is much more accurate than full-auto and thus more deadly.

Semi automatic is even more accurate, but accuracy is more of a training event anyway. If some nut job just ran in and tried to squeeze off a full magazine and couldn't control it, schools would likely be safer.

Expanded magazines: expanded magazines do not effect gun crime, see the assault weapons ban previously.

In addition, refusing to enforce bad laws (which this is, as it's a feel good laws which are bad by nature), is something that is good. Much in the way that refusing to enforce the criminalizing of marijuana is good. Laws don't deserve respect for being the law, they deserve respect for doing good. Until bad/useless laws are repealed in rapid order instead of only being repealed when there's an outcry, refusing to support bad laws is good (a law is bad by default, it's only good when it accomplishes its goal with a minimum of collateral damage, assault weapons bans do neither).

What is "needed" isn't relevant any more than "you don't need it" is grounds for banning anything else that can be abused but rarely is. Allowing something unless it proves reliably dangerous (considering the rates of crimes with such weapons, that's not a given) is something I consider the necessary default of any laws instead of the opposite. Switch blade bans come to mind as something that was banned out of fear and did precisely jack to prevent crimes.

Why do you even need burst fire on your household or hunting gun? You should only need one shot to hit under normal circumstances.

You don't but you don't need to go through an airport without taking off your shoes, and you're likely to be just as safe.

I'm with Maddie myself: gun crimes have a higher penalty, non violent have less with general lower restrictions on guns and gun owners. Law abiding gun owners are not a problem much at all and criminals aren't going to work within the law anyway.

Fight smart, not fair.
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#47260: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:28:06 PM

Good to know. But tighter regulation might prevent the mass shootings. (Note: I might mess up the terminology a bit, but I think my comments get across) A) "burst fire" is the way those weapons are usually used. It is much more accurate than full-auto and thus more deadly. B) Why do you even need burst fire on your household or hunting gun? You should only need one shot to hit under normal circumstances.

Before that line of thought goes any further, burst fire is not being discussed. Machine guns, burst fire or full-automatic, have not been manufactured for the general public since 1986. There are few of those machine guns around. The guns being discussed are not machine guns. (The last murder committed with a registered machine gun was way back in the 90s, and committed by a police officer, for instance).

The ones being discussed are no different than hunting rifles, except that they have certain ergonomics that make them more comfortable to fit the users' particular body type. It's like the difference in being able to adjust the seat in your car and being forced to sit on wood block. The features being discussed don't change the function.

Yes, they are slightly different on the inside. But, to use your car analogy, being hit by a normal car going 70mph is just as deadly as one with all the "bells and whistles" going 80mph. Why should they be regulated differently?

That's the thing, there already are regulations for both. We're going from a discussion about things that look like those that aren't legal to be used and then applying the same logic to the ones that are.

The US had a federal regulation for speed limits for many years, limiting drivers to 55 everywhere, as a means to try and curb gas usage and reduce safety. It did not work. Why didn't we simply make cars that didn't go past 55? The answer is that it was not and is still not practical.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#47261: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:36:08 PM

Yoinking a discussion from the Economics thread, because it seems on-topic to the gun control debate. I postulated that, even if I liked the idea of a stimulus and spending money to Make Jobs(tm), I didn't like the idea of having to trust someone else to use my money effectively. Fighteer said that he was about as distrustful of the idea of businesses taking his money to do the same thing.

All of this makes me wonder if this kind of idea is behind the Libertarian suggestion of "let's all be private armed citizens so we don't have to worry about the government taking our stuff!" If so, my sympathy for certain lunatics just went up a notch (but only a notch); "I don't trust anyone to have power over me" is reasonable (and something I hold to wherever possible), if not reasonably actionable.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#47262: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:37:53 PM

That and most assault rifle and similar designed weapons are mostly used for sport by enthusiasts, not crime (too big and bulky, although you could make an argument for things like the PDR). It's the same reason that we don't get that many serial killers who just climb up into a tower with a hunting rifle, take one shot and move somewhere else over and over to bask in the fear, that doesn't fit the particular type of crazy that would make it work.

Fight smart, not fair.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#47263: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:38:37 PM

Reiterating that I do support some level of armed security measures.
I find the whole "armed security in schools" issue strange, as there is already armed security in schools, as far as I'm aware. I worked for the School District of Palm Beach County for several years — each middle and high school (grades 6-8 and 9-12, respectively) had at least one school police officer. This is an actual police officer permanently assigned to that school (ie, "school police" is not like "mall cop", where they're not really a cop at all). Elementary schools (grades K-5) shared one school police officer between several schools (usually 3-4, though it depended on how large the schools were and how far apart they were). I don't see a problem with putting a dedicated school police officer in every school (including every elementary school) full time, other than cost (they decided to do that for every elementary school in unincorporated Orange County, at an estimated cost of between two and three million for the remaining half of the school year).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#47264: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:47:23 PM

My (old) school has eleven cops, three on duty at any given time. It can't be that expensive. If they're discussing adding a cop in every room, that would be a bit more outlandish. Hell, call it economic stimulus.

Fight smart, not fair.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#47265: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:51:48 PM

My high school had two cops, and I'm pretty sure they were both armed. Mostly they just chased down drug peddlers.

Interestingly, the shooting that happened there didn't happen until a few years after that.

edited 15th Jan '13 9:52:39 PM by Pykrete

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#47266: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:55:37 PM

we should ban all guns period.

Being that a legal impossibility in the U.S (2nd ammendment and how it will be removed when hell freezes over) we should limit ourself to weapons that could be used to:

1. Stage succesful mass shootings
2. Ambushing army convoys

I mean, should people really be allowed to have AK 47´s and M16´s in their homes? Edit: of course not. The real discussion then centers on semi-automatic.

[up][up]

There was a cop at Columbine and he got into a shooting with the shooters (I feel so redundant). It didnt help much...

edited 15th Jan '13 9:59:25 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
LooseCannon The Groose Is Loose from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jun, 2012
The Groose Is Loose
#47267: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:57:13 PM

[up] I thought automatic weapons were already illegal.

Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#47268: Jan 15th 2013 at 9:57:53 PM

[up] I wasnt saying they werent do, but it kinda came across that way so my bad.

As for putting a cop on every school and on every classroom, we can afford it. But then it would turn us into more of a police state than we already are, do we truly want that? But maybe thats just me being paranoid...

Doent conservatives want small government anyways? What is the NRA stance on the deficit?

edited 15th Jan '13 10:02:14 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Byakuko Imperial Court Minstrel from Great Prosperity Sphere Since: Dec, 2012
Imperial Court Minstrel
#47269: Jan 15th 2013 at 10:35:07 PM

cops are low level government, the big government they're against is regulation in ever little micromanaged detail.

and as for automatics being illegal... typical anti-gun ignorance.

there are several THOUSAND machine guns in the hands of private citizens, along with artillery as large as 40mm bofors autocannon and 57mm antiTANK cannon.

as long as the right atf clearance and fees are exchanged, the citizen gets their flashy toy.

when was the last time a schoolbus was shredded by artillery and heavy machine gun fire?

the anti-gun people in america can't fathom the injustice of punishing millions of law abiding citizens for the acts of a few lunatics

Guilt by Association? in america?

i heard several reports that most of the victims of newtown were shot by the pistols anyway.

there is though, an irony to the new york ban just passed.

it has a seven shot limit. allowing the purchase of colt 1911 handguns over large capacity, smaller caliber glocks, meaning the body count in future shootings may INCREASE

and hunting rifles with hunting ammo are more lethal than assault weapons anyway

wild mass guessso the ban, and eventual national awb 2, will increase the body count wild mass guess

as for WHY one should have the right to own.

simple, art. firearms are a work of art and engineering. ironically, the pinnacle of the antigun crowd cultures' "art" is the likes of seranno's "piss christ" (sold for over a quarter million dollars???!!!), while gun art is things like this:

chivethebrigade.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/gun-art-2-920-10.jpg

and this

imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/imagen463.jpg/sr=1

now which side is civil?

edited 15th Jan '13 10:35:38 PM by Byakuko

"I will strike down all that threaten my clan!"
Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#47270: Jan 15th 2013 at 10:46:25 PM

"as long as the right atf clearance and fees are exchanged, the citizen gets their flashy toy. "

This is exactly the point we should be focusing on (as other people have mentioned and then the topic got side-tracked *is also guilty of taking the topic off on a tangent*). Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a handy list of what the current requirements are for different types of weapons? That would probably be the best reference and serve as a starting line for all arguments.

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#47271: Jan 15th 2013 at 11:21:52 PM

[up] It depends on the state. Some states have different requirements on different weapons.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#47272: Jan 15th 2013 at 11:28:27 PM

@Baff is trying to take away my right to ambush army convoys.

An Oregon sheriff has sent a letter to Vice President Joe Biden saying his department will not enforce any new gun laws it considers unconstitutional.

The White House on Tuesday quadrupled the number of signatures required for an official reponse to a petition on its web site

edited 15th Jan '13 11:30:43 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47273: Jan 15th 2013 at 11:33:48 PM

Which is why we really should have federal standards, because all this differing state standard has resulted in politicians in Maryland or somewhere trying to make it so that their citizens with concealed carry licenses can do so in DC where that's banned, effectively trying to circumvent laws in another area where they don't make the decisions.

@Baff: No sane politician is going to ban hunting rifles, particularly in low density population areas or farms where overpopulation of deer and such are a concern. There are people who legitimately hunt for their food instead of going out and buying processed meats. These are usually the responsible gun owners who don't go and shoot up schools.

I'm still dumbfounded that anyone things having any of these weapons will actually protect them from our government if our government actually decides that going after them is a good idea. What with the fact that our police and military will always be better armed than the average citizen, no matter how many crazy things they buy. Or why they think our government would go after them in the first place. Our government doesn't usually go after people for no reason like that. Hell, last I checked Ted Nugent is still alive and well despite his idiotic rantings about how Obama would go after him if he was elected again.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#47274: Jan 15th 2013 at 11:41:26 PM

[up]

The IRA, Taliban, Drug Cartels, and the Viet Cong are proof that being better armed doesn't mean instant victory.

Granted I'm not sure how a band of rednecks lead by Ted Nugent would stack up in comparison to the groups listed above.

GOP lining up behind US effort in Mali

Representative Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) said Tuesday that if the President Obama wants to impose new restrictions on gun ownership, he should start with his own administration, given how it handled the Fast and Furious gun-walking operation.

For those who don't know what 'Fast and Furious' is:

edited 15th Jan '13 11:54:48 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#47275: Jan 15th 2013 at 11:51:54 PM

@ Baff: Yes, there was an armed Sheriff's Deputy who was posted to the school at Columbine (the armed guard that keeps being mentioned), but he was not at the school itself when the shooting started (he was watching a smoking spot just off the school grounds where students would go to smoke). He was essentially in the position of a first responder when he arrived back at the school. He never went inside, and his entire focus was protecting the people who were now outside the school. Whether he could have changed things by staying at the school itself is entirely speculation.

The same officer has come out and said that armed guards placed in a school should focus on the school itself.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!

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