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DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#46926: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:52:21 AM

@Baff I won't argue that it can be incredibly destructive. However, I'd need statistics to say that on the most part, homeschool kids are behind. In my old town (which, to be fair, did not have a high standard for education.) There was a fairly sizable homeschool community (20-25 kids), maybe 5 of which were homeschooled for religious rather than academic reasons. The rest of them were homescooled because their parents were honestly capable of providing a better education for them, at least up until high-school, than the local public schools.

edited 12th Jan '13 10:53:29 AM by DrTentacles

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46928: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:52:51 AM

[up][up][up]

Not prohibited, regulated.

And when I said regulated is that this kids should be required to attend school at least for certain hours a wekk (far less than the ones on the schooling system), exception be made of those who cant physically do so because of special circumstances.

Also, I am providing logical arguments. Statistical analysis might be useful but this is more than anything a dogmatic discussion.

And as I said, this is a population you cant sample, so until there isnt regulation taht allows authorities to sample this kids the "u lack evidence" cant really be presented forward as an argument dissmisive of the issue at hand.

[up][up]

All I am saying is that in its present form its a negative thing overall because I would beleive that the amount of kids who are captive by their parents do to this system is unaceptable.

Once again this arises from my personal experience with some of said kids.

If the system is regulated then I dont see why it shouldnt be allowed.

edited 12th Jan '13 10:55:55 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#46929: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:55:47 AM

Homeschooled kids are required to learn certain things, and have at least the pretense of a state approved curriculum. You also have to take equivalency tests, at least in a few states. It's not just a free pass to do whatever the hell you want.

#46930: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:55:53 AM

Thank you once again, Tomu, for being the person who despite disagreeing with me on practically everything ever is willing to support me when people are being unreasonable.

@DG: Please tell me you did not just escalate this from "homeschooled is bad and should be repressed" to "moral instruction is bad and should be repressed".

<><
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#46931: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:56:15 AM

...*self thump*

edited 12th Jan '13 10:57:12 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#46932: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:56:46 AM

@Grizz: All I'm saying is that if you have to pull your kids out of school to teach them religion, there's something wrong.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46933: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:57:01 AM

[up][up][up][up]

yes. But that is not the problem at hand. Proficiency at math is not a good indicative of critical thinking nor of social interaction. Standarize tests tell you little about the real capacities of a child. Most of the time homeschooling is mediocre public schooling by other means but with a wide margin for abuse.

[up][up][up] Moral education is a bad thing for the national interest when its used as an excuse to shield kids from science.

Also, I dont really like to be the bad guy on this discussion, but the elemnt of abuse its present. Ive seen it, and I dont want to quote anecdotical evidence because I know it isnt fair.

But this system its terrible.

edited 12th Jan '13 10:59:48 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#46934: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:59:13 AM

What about mentally retarded children? If they're taking the same test as everyone else, they're likely to fall below the minimum standard, but that's not necessarily the result of how they're taught.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#46935: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:59:47 AM

@Grizzly, how exactly is the denying of evolution (for example) a "moral issue"?

"You can reply to this Message!"
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46936: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:00:38 AM

[up][up]

exception be made of those who cant physically do so because of special circumstances.

I guess I should have added "or whom require special attention".

edited 12th Jan '13 11:01:01 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#46937: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:01:09 AM

@Tentacles (since I somehow missed your post): Most states don't have much regulation on homeschooling. If all states had policies in place that students have to reach academic milestones before graduating, I'd be more okay with it. I just want to avoid stuff like what happened with me, where my parents were teaching me blatant falsehoods in the name of religion.

@Raven: Unless the parents keep them out of school entirely, there's usually some documentation that they require specialized education.

edited 12th Jan '13 11:02:14 AM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#46938: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:02:43 AM

Look, I'm not going to argue for a moment that using homeschool to deny science is terrible. But I don't think that's grounds for condemning the entire system as bad. I'd need statistical proof that the system is fundamentally flawed before I go that far. Honestly, I think the bigger issue is that parents, homeschoolers or not, have incredible potential to screw up a kid's development. Short of totalitarian "test to become a parent" type measures, I'm not sure what you can do to prevent that.

[up] I'd agree that testing to maintain at least a level of public school equivalence is needed. I know we'd get a huge outcry about "Teh gubmint thought police controlling our kids," but every child has a right to a good, honest, and true education.

[down] I was referring more to Baff, who seems to be saying that the system is inherently flawed past salvation, rather in need of overhaul (Like education in general in the country.) Homeschooling should be a way to get an education either better suits your particular way of learning (I had a lot of trouble learning the way public school wanted to teach.), or simple teaches you better in general.

edited 12th Jan '13 11:06:18 AM by DrTentacles

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#46939: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:04:00 AM

@Tentacles: Pushing for standardized regulation is condemning the system?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46940: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:04:48 AM

[up][up]

is not flawed past salvation. Its jut flawed beyond "lets not do anything about it".

As Ive already said, I hate to have to be in this side of the argument. I really favour personalized education, but I can not overlook the very dark and negative aspects of homsechooling as it stands.

[up][up] As Ive already pointed out, there are no mayor statistical analysis for or against except for some local standarised testing.

I can only present you with anecdotical evidence, do this statistical fact might be interesting:

So who chooses to home school their children and why? Data from the U.S. Department of Education suggest that although families who home school represent a wide spectrum of racial, ethnic, religious, cultural, and socioeconomic backgrounds, most are white, religious, and conservative.

This, experince tells me, is not all that good...

In the end school is not so much about what you learn (which is little), but about the ideas you are exposed to, the people you are exposed to, the activities you do in a group.


Also I am dropping this discussion for being in the wrong thread. If somebody feels like making a thread about it go right ahead.

edited 12th Jan '13 11:11:34 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46941: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:09:24 AM

In practice, I would suggest that the people that home school are the people who can afford to do so (in terms of time and money), so it's not surprising home schooled students tend to do better on average than their not home schooled peers. I wonder if our standardized tests are a good barometer, but that's an issue with the tests, not with home schooling.

As long as we use standardized tests to measure progress, and as long as home schooled students ace the tests, home schooled students make excellent progress.

edited 12th Jan '13 11:10:17 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#46942: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:12:56 AM

[up][up] I feel like we've reached common ground?

Homeschooling can be very good, but it needs to be regulated better, to make it's at least equivalent to public schooling, basically. Homeschooling shouldn't be an excuse for ignoring the parts of education that people personally disagree with.

I also think that the socialization in public school is important, but that's harder to legislate (wow, look at my, arguing against my own side.) I was lucky, in that, as I said, we have a good homeschool community who would hang out, put in community theatre, and do group lessons and stuff. However, that's not always going to be the case.

#46943: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:12:58 AM

Most of the time homeschooling is mediocre public schooling by other means but with a wide margin for abuse.

Moral education is a bad thing for the national interest when its used as an excuse to shield kids from science. [implying that this is actually the main thing it is used for]

the elemnt of abuse its present

But this system its terrible.

More baseless statements.

Ive seen it, and I dont want to quote anecdotical evidence because I know it isnt fair.

I've seen it too. I've also seen horrible things happen to children in public schools. Until you can show evidence that bad outcomes are more likely in a homeschool environment you are still talking a lot of crap.

edited 12th Jan '13 11:19:41 AM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46944: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:15:53 AM

I'm with Edward on this one. We don't get to rail against the anti-science agenda of creationism, and then have an anti-science approach against home schools just because some of them reinforce creationism.

#46945: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:18:38 AM

I wonder if our standardized tests are a good barometer, but that's an issue with the tests, not with home schooling.

Which is one of the primary reasons why requiring homeschool students to conform to standardized regulation is a terribad idea. Homeschoolers are the ones who are finally exploring more effective means of education than institutionalize standardization.

I also think that the socialization in public school is important, but that's harder to legislate (wow, look at my, arguing against my own side.) I was lucky, in that, as I said, we have a good homeschool community who would hang out, put in community theatre, and do group lessons and stuff. However, that's not always going to be the case.

It's going to be the case the majority of the time, and there's no evidence to suggest that it will be the case less often than it would in public school.

I am dropping this discussion for being in the wrong thread. If somebody feels like making a thread about it go right ahead.

I don't really have enough time for an in-depth homeschooling debate. I merely beg that everyone refrain from making statements about it that have no basis in evidence, especially when advocating for its regulation/illegalization.

<><
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46946: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:19:33 AM

[up][up][up]

very well, I will concede that what you say its truth, my statement might lack a solid base, but there are a conclusion that follow a logical and nuance approach. I might be wrong, of course.

Also. Education´s pourpose its the national interest. Thats the reason why education is compulsory.

and as I said above this is a derail so I will stop here discussing the issue.

edited 12th Jan '13 11:20:07 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46947: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:26:08 AM

Looking back on what I said I realize I have no real evidence beyond personal anecdotes. I withdraw my statement and apologize to any I might have offended. I was being stupid.

TheGirlWithPointyEars Never Ask Me the Odds from Outer Space Since: Dec, 2009
Never Ask Me the Odds
#46948: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:35:43 AM

I just want the quality of regular public schooling improved - and everywhere, including where a really good school budget would strain a budget built on the property taxes of poor people. I've always thought it ludicrous that your education depends on where your parents can afford to live, or afford to send you, and that the difference is so striking.

But mainly, it's an investment in the future. Students prepared for jobs that require intelligence, knowledge and creativity. Voters prepared to understand exactly who and what they're voting for. Leaders prepared to tackle complex questions and not neglect long-term gains. People prepared to understand more than we think possible now.

She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic My Skating Liveblog
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#46949: Jan 12th 2013 at 11:36:39 AM

I'd have to say that homeschooling should at the very least be much more seriously monitored by the state or national government. In my area, quite often "homeschooling" is used by political and religious extremists to remove their children from their social groups so they can better indoctrinate them into their own belief system.

My own parents removed my siblings and I from public school when I was about ten or eleven (that particular period is kind of a blur). They, and other members of the particular religious sect that they were affiliated with, believed that Satan and the Catholic Church (don't ask :| ) had secretly taken over the world already and were using public education to brainwash their children. Very few actually "home-schooled" them further, believing that there was no need since Christ was returning any second.

More recently the ultra-nutty tea-party types (I mean REALLY bad ones) have been doing something similar; I could name at least a dozen that I know personally. Again very few of their parents/guardians had anything above a high school degree, and very few of them that I know have received any education beyond what they learned in the public schools.

Granted, anecdotes should not be taken as evidence, and I'm in no way trying to imply that such situations are the norm. However, at least in my home state of N.C. there was and is almost zero enforcement of any existing regulations. I don't have the actual rules and regulations on hand, but if I recall all that is needed is the occasional test and attendance/grade log for the state to be satisfied. Both can be forged in no time at all. In my case the "test" was the California Achievement Test (pretty much the only written work I was ever, come to think of it), the last of which included no work above the difficulty given to the average 5th grade student.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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