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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#46801: Jan 11th 2013 at 11:38:35 AM

And we used to have congressional hearings and every now and then somebody actually got in trouble.
?? sad ?? They did? When was this?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#46802: Jan 11th 2013 at 11:45:29 AM

Yes, I'm fondly remembering all the anti-torture, pro-human rights fervor that raged during the Bush administration... oh wait.

edited 11th Jan '13 11:45:46 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#46803: Jan 11th 2013 at 11:46:09 AM

[up]x4 The problem is, the issue isn't to suggest giving Republicans a try (or to call that a bad idea). We shouldn't have to get into that. We should fix what we're doing right now, under whoever is in charge.

edited 11th Jan '13 11:46:19 AM by Trivialis

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#46804: Jan 11th 2013 at 11:49:53 AM

[up][up] Or the Clinton Administration, or the Bush Sr. Administration, or the Reagan Administration...

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#46805: Jan 11th 2013 at 11:51:13 AM

Of course we should fix it. However, I see awfully few people in government, on either side of the party divide, making any serious move to rein in those activities. If I'm presented with the opportunity to vote for a candidate who espouses the restoration of Fourth Amendment rights and the elimination of torture, means it, and also happens to be a supporter of Keynesian economics, gay rights, consumer rights, climate science, and so forth... of course they get my vote.

So far it hasn't really been my privilege to do that, so I have to work with what we've got.

edited 11th Jan '13 11:51:41 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#46806: Jan 11th 2013 at 12:17:59 PM

The "means it" part is the most problematic: How do you determine that during the voting stage, given that practically every known politician can never be relied upon to actually seek all of his campaign promises?

edited 11th Jan '13 12:18:54 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#46807: Jan 11th 2013 at 12:20:16 PM

Well, Obama claimed to be opposed to torture and in favor of Fourth Amendment rights when he was running for office. Then he had his first post-election national security briefing... and totally shut up about it.

My best guess is that it scared him shitless to find out what's actually going on out there. Given the pervasive influence of the national security and military apparatus of the country, I wonder if there's a way that anyone can go into a leadership role and not get "captured by the system".

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#46808: Jan 11th 2013 at 2:43:43 PM

@ Taoist:

...or the Eisenhower Administration?

Then again, if the US can't directly do something, they can ask someone else to do it for them that can...

Keep Rolling On
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46810: Jan 11th 2013 at 3:46:49 PM

You need to destroy the system before you can fix anything.

You can't trust the politicians to do it in your place.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#46811: Jan 11th 2013 at 3:53:27 PM

Destroying the system seems like a lot of effort when a lot can be done through bypassing and ignoring it. Take the Occupy Our Homes movements or labour unions. They didn't have to destroy shit. Arguably they didn't do enough, but hey, "enough" is for suckers.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#46812: Jan 11th 2013 at 3:56:26 PM

[up][up] Ahaaahahahahahah....no.

Destroying the system does just that. Destroy the system. It's the lazy, stupid way to fix stuff. It's a recipe for "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

The reason why democracy, at least American democracy was invented was so we could change the system without violent revolution. So we could learn from the mistakes of the past, and improve on that. And I think, for the most part, it's succeeded. Yes, we've screwed up. We've screwed up a lot. But the fact that we've been able to make progress without violent, bloody revolution speaks for itself.

"Not trusting politicians" is just as lazy. It's the argument of the people who say "Well, I can't have what I want now/I can't have a perfect solution now, so why bother?" Our entire government is based on having some level of faith in politicians. Just deciding all politicians are corrupt is a self-fulfilling policy. It's a way to feel good about yourself for being above it all. What you need to do is put effort in keeping politicians honest.

I loathe people who say "Well, the system isn't perfect, so we just have to tear it down, and start again." Yes, the system may be flawed, but everything else is. It's still worth saving. It's still worth improving on. The main reason we're in the mess we are today is that so many people have given up, and decided to let the people who do actually make a fuss, and are loud, and put pressure on politicians run the show. Apathy, and Perfect Solution Fallacy solves nothing.

edited 11th Jan '13 4:00:26 PM by DrTentacles

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46813: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:01:24 PM

[up] I dare you to say that to the children we orphaned, the wives and husbands we've widowed, through the use of drone strikes.

Speaking of drones, the "Disposition Matrix" isn't stopping anytime soon. It's designed to keep moving forever. None of us can change that. None of the politicians will change that. None of the defense contractors want to change that.

edited 11th Jan '13 4:03:24 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#46814: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:06:06 PM

I wish you stop going back to drones Serocco. It is becoming Godwin's Law with you.

I think it we started apologizing for the wrong we cause. Do we start asking about the wrongs others have cause. The only thing we can do is try our best not to mess up worst than before and keep moving forward.

The Reaper Games starts anew.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46815: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:08:10 PM

[up] Doesn't mean it isn't true.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#46816: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:08:18 PM

[up][up][up] I would.

You want to know why? Because I believe in America, still.

I believe that we can make a difference. It might not be as fast as you want, but changing a society isn't fast. It takes effort. I'm sorry if you're not willing to put that in.

You want to make a difference? Work within the system. Get local officials elected that you, if not like, accept. Slowly, gradually, the climate will shift. But if you just throw a tantrum, and disown the system *nothing will change.* Society will continue to be dominated by the people willing to put in the effort.

All societies have flaws. Ours doesn't have any more than most nations. Less, in fact. Tell me, is there a place on Earth that you think is honestly, unequivocably *better* than America?

edited 11th Jan '13 4:14:34 PM by DrTentacles

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46817: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:10:52 PM

Working into the system will turn me into a cog of the machine.

Our dear Mister President is the perfect example of that.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#46818: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:12:44 PM

[up][up][up]So is saying that the Police are evil. I mean you can go on saying Fuck the police, Fuck the police, but you don't know what they go through. You only pick or chose what makes you right. The world is not that Black and White and by pretending it is you cause more harm than good.

[up]By saying that you have no intention to change anything.

edited 11th Jan '13 4:13:54 PM by theweirdKiddokun

The Reaper Games starts anew.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46819: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:12:52 PM

What proof do you have this new system you create won't have the same problem?

edited 11th Jan '13 4:13:33 PM by Kostya

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#46820: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:13:22 PM

@Taoist: Although, having more tax than spending will be revenue... so that's a bit simplified.

What kind of changes would you propose, Serocco?

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46821: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:14:22 PM

And don't say "stage a violent overthrow of the US government"

CLARIFYING EDIT: I don't think this is Serocco's position, but I have no other ideas other than working within the system.

edited 11th Jan '13 4:15:47 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#46822: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:16:59 PM

You're always going to be a cog in some machine. Always. Best you can do is make it as good a machine as possible. There is no way to swiftly change a society. Look at Egypt or Russia if you want proof of that.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46823: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:19:00 PM

I'm not saying stage a violent revolution. That means "let's eradicate all that's been done."

I'm saying eradicate the way things are run. Get rid of the bureaucracy. Find a way to get rid of money's influence. Shut down some of the government agencies, like Homeland Security. Ban lobbying. Ban campaign donations or something.

[up] It's a machine I sure as hell don't want to become part of. Guys like Obama are a sure-fire example of how "change you can believe in" morphed into "chains we can believe in."

edited 11th Jan '13 4:20:48 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#46824: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:20:45 PM

A lot of those things are necessary. Not...pleasant, but necessary. And furthermore, the only way to change them is slow work within the system.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46825: Jan 11th 2013 at 4:21:15 PM

Serocco you seem to have this strange idea that you can just completely divorce yourself from "the machine." Unfortunately you can't. I'm sorry, but you can't unless you become a hermit or something. Protesting things is all well and good and can get ideas out there but unless you elect people into the system that are willing to take those ideas and put them into action you're just going to be a person standing on the street decrying the government. The only other way I can think of is by staging a revolution and if you are sincerely advocating that then I'm sorry but that is absurd. Can you imagine the chaos we'd have, not just in the US but in the entire world, if the US government was suddenly replaced? No, it would cause far more suffering than you're trying to prevent and it would be very easy for a dictator to take over.


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