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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46376: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:24:26 PM

Umm...

This is kinda getting into the Alterantive history thread territory...

just saying.

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46377: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:25:49 PM

Here's a picture mapping out our military activities since Eisenhower.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46378: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:26:34 PM

Well, the Southern states immediately made it illegal to secede from the Confederation, but I think the fact that there was secession at all means that legality doesn't matter much when you've got a group that feels that strongly about it. The Indians in Oklahoma also fought for the South, on the promise that they'd get to keep/have their own state and I wonder whether that deal would have been honored by the Confederate government.

But as interesting as this is I think we're getting off topic. We do have a thread on alternate history.

[up]You already posted that Serocco. I wasn't kidding when I said you have a habit of repeating yourself ad nauseum.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:27:10 PM by AceofSpades

OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#46379: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:27:58 PM

[up][up] Whoa, Deja-vu.

What is the organization that put that together?

edited 5th Jan '13 8:28:08 PM by OhnoaBear

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#46380: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:29:04 PM

Actually, secession was never a majority opinion in the South. Even among whites (don't get me started about the lack of votes their slaves got).

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46381: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:30:22 PM

[up][up][up] At least for that map, I figured to post it on a different page so others can comment on it.

[up][up] The design team of ILC.iNK mapped that out. The numbers on the pictures represent the Presidents who ordered those operations.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:30:32 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#46382: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:32:15 PM

I've heard that Texas was the only state which allowed a popular vote on secession during the Civil War.

Anyone have any truth on that?

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46383: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:35:33 PM

To further comment on that map...

The United States trough plan Colombia does large scale fumigation of fields with the intent to kill the plants out of which narcotics are made.

Problems is that said chemicals kill all the plants they come into contact with including legal crops. They have also been linked with adverse health effect, and it doesnt help that the company that makes said pesticide is Monsanto, of Agent Orange fame.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:36:43 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#46384: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:36:03 PM

Actually, secession was never a majority opinion in the South. Even among whites (don't get me started about the lack of votes their slaves got).

...I was actually not aware of that... In that case, I was wrong about the war. However, the ends do not justify the means. Lincoln still shouldn't have suspended habeas corpus, though. :/

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#46385: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:38:03 PM

Grant certainly shouldn't have. But I think that was the least of Grant's problems.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46386: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:38:17 PM

Gah, there to many conversation going on at once.

I can't keep up with them all.

And I'm calling bull on the 2010 Haiti earthquake being used as way to militarize the country. What does that even mean?

edited 5th Jan '13 8:42:40 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#46387: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:39:54 PM

Secession shouldn't be allowed if there are certain economic issues involved. In Canada, one of the major Quebec political parties threatens to secede every so often, ignoring the fact that the way the Quebec economy is set up, they'd immediately have a huge recession at the very least and the rest of Canada would get quite a bit more money freed up. Basically, it's a ridiculous situation where if Quebec does secede, they'll benefit pretty much anyone else.

I don't know how the state economies are set up, but if it's even remotely similar, secession would be a rather bad idea.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#46388: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:43:15 PM

Grant was a corrupt drunkard who was absolutely incompetent as president.

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46389: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:44:22 PM

[up][up][up]

The U.S does have a truly horrific track record when it comes to Haiti.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I invit you to look it up.

[1]

[2]

edited 5th Jan '13 8:46:52 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46390: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:47:16 PM

[up] I have another one on Haiti. The US military gave priority to army units needed to secure the airport, distribute aid, and provide security, basically giving the soldiers full reign over the humanitarian aid in those sectors. After that, the relief flights were cleared or rejected on a first come, first serve basis.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:47:39 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46391: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:48:51 PM

[up][up]

I'm not denying that.

What I am denying is the idea that the US used the 2010 earthquake as a way to militarize Haiti. They don't even explain what militarize means in that context.

[up]

Nor am I denying the fact the aid distribution in Haiti was handled almost as poorly as Katrina.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:50:46 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46392: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:48:55 PM

Okay, I tried googling that question about Texas, but all I got was all that recent bullcrap. There was apparently a case called Texas vs. White in 1869 that ruled it illegal in 1861, when Texas seceded to join the rest of the South. According to this article I found it does seem to have been popular within the state, though. Sam Houston, though, was staunchly against secession, being a Union supporter.

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/mgs02

There was a convention to vote, but that was the Texas government itself doing it. They apparently just entirely ignored Houston, who was governor at the time. Wow.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46393: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:50:49 PM

[up] Oh, I think I heard about that. Something about the politicians voting without consent from the public, right?

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46394: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:51:32 PM

[up][up][up]

When you look at the context of United States relationships with Haiti... which in rescent history include such shinning pearls as having the first democratically elected president toppled, and then invading the country because of said coup, once can clearly see how the United States would be served, and have been served, strategically by placing military troops on said country as a result of the earthquacke.

[up][up][up]

[1]


But the limits of U.S. capability can also be seen: The Pentagon diverted an unmanned Global Hawk drone bound for Afghanistan to Haiti instead, to photograph the damage there. "We were about to send that Global Hawk over to the war" until the earthquake, explained Air Force Col. Bradley Butz. "It will stay here until the President says it's time to send it forward."

edited 5th Jan '13 8:55:35 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46395: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:52:48 PM

[up] Another drone, huh?

At least that one wasn't used for war.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:56:58 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46396: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:55:16 PM

Well, the legislature votes all the time without telling us. How else would they get any work done? We give them permission, essentially, by voting for them. It was a special convention apparently, too, with Houston hoping they'd vote against secession.

I'm talking about history here, not what's going on right now.

[up][up]That sounds like a productive use for a drone, though, considering that after natural disasters there's places we can't get to walking on the ground easily. I mean, I think we'd have heard about it if that thing had been used hostilely. It's the same reason we use helicopters in disaster areas.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:56:42 PM by AceofSpades

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46397: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:56:25 PM

[up] I know the governor was ignored entirely over it. Are there any records that say whether or not the voters wanted to leave the union?

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#46398: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:57:13 PM

As I understand it, the NDAA only talks about detention of people working with Al Quaeda against the United States, and only as long as America's war with that organization continues. It's basically trying to treat Al Quaeda members and allies as though they're prisoners of war (who are also held indefinitely until the war's over and/or their release is negotiated). It's consistent with the general principle of treating Al Quaeda as an enemy military organization; the only problems are 1) since Al Quaeda isn't a traditional military, traditional guidelines for determining who is and isn't part of it don't always work, and 2) despite treating them as a military threat, the U.S. still holds to the "we do not negotiate with terrorists" edict, so negotiating prisoner exchanges or conditions for ending the war isn't on the table.

In short, we need a new Rules of War book for when one or more parties is an NGO.

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46399: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:58:39 PM

[up]

Its not treating them like prisoners of wars, because Al Qaeda members are not treated as prisoner of wars but as enemy combatants and are thus not threated in accordance with the Geneva Convention except for Common article 3 which talks about "non international conflicts"... but even then we dont even follow said article anyhow.

edited 5th Jan '13 9:01:08 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46400: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:59:00 PM

What I've got so far says it was popularly supported. But as was stated about the rest of the South, it clearly didn't particularly matter who wanted what that wasn't a politician. There was a long fight over it, though, considering we were the last state to secede.

Oh wait, here we go, there was a vote!

On February 23, 1861, Texas went to the polls and voted for or against secession. The results for the state as a whole were 46,153 for and 14,747 against. Of the 122 counties casting votes only eighteen cast majorities against secession. Only eleven others cast as much as 40 percent of their vote against. Not surprisingly, almost all of these twenty-nine counties were located in the two areas where the campaign had been the most open and the Unionist leadership had high status and good organization.


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