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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46351: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:56:35 PM

[up]

Fair enough. Ill look into it.

But is hard for me. I am really distubed by this. My education in law has tough me that Habeas Corpus is the one Sacred right citizens have. Its the foundation of civil liberties. If what I am reading online its true (I am not saying it necessarly is) then this is a pretty amazing thing.

And Obama is a constitutional schoolar. He knows his shit. He knows what he is doing. And I hear everyone saying all this horrible things he is doing is because the GOP is making him do it, but I really havent see him put a fight for anything really, besides the healthcare reform which was pretty conservative itself, in the last 4 years...

I also found this:

American citizens can be detained under the FY 2012 NDAA because the bill codifies into federal statute existing authorities, which allow the military to detain U.S. citizens. The law is less straightforward for individuals, including citizens, apprehended in the United States. Although an amendment was added making clear that the FY 2012 NDAA is not intended to “affect existing law or authorities” relating to the detention of U.S. citizens or others picked up on U.S. soil, existing law is not clear on this point. For example, the Bush administration held two individuals apprehended in the United States – José Padilla (a U.S. citizen) and Ali al-Marri (a legal resident) – in military custody for years under the legal authorities that are now codified in the FY 2012 NDAA. If this or a future administration were to use the military to detain an individual apprehended on U.S. soil, it would pose serious legal issues, which would be decided by a court. President Obama has stated that he will not place an American citizen in indefinite military detention.

[1]

Furthermore it only applies to people who are suspected to grant significant help to the Taliban or Al Qaida, but they just need to make a federal judge think (which is not proving) that a person is more likely than not to have supported this groups then you dont have habeas corpus.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:02:26 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#46352: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:01:10 PM

If it's a feel good law, it should be repealed. That's why it's called a feel good law rather than a worthwhile law. It makes people feel like they've done something worthwhile when they haven't.

On the NDAA, this comes to mind.

Fight smart, not fair.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#46353: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:08:07 PM

Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus too. We did okay.

Normally, Baff, I'd agree with you that suspending it is a bad thing. But you're phrasing it so hysterically that it's hard to sympathize with you.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46354: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:08:46 PM

The Obama administration is considering keeping a force of 3,000 to 9,000 troops in Afghanistan after 2014

What do you think guys? Is Afghanistan secure enough as it is, or does it need further support?

edited 5th Jan '13 7:09:19 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#46355: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:08:57 PM

Can't the Supreme Court judge the law as unconstitutional?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46356: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:10:21 PM

[up][up][up]

As did Grant.

[up]

The NDAA?

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46357: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:10:48 PM

[up][up][up][up]

And he did so under a state of total war.

There is really no excuse over it. And yea I am being hysterical, but people are not taking this seriously. It will come and bite us in the ass in a couple of years. When this things are signed into law they rarely ever go back (take note that Lincoln did his stuff trough executive order and that he was... well... fighting a civil war and had emergency like powers).

[up][up]

Didnt know that. It apparently was used to fight the Klan.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:13:40 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#46358: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:13:01 PM

[up][up][up]The entire bill? Probably not. They could strike down any offending measures but they are unlikely to take up a case unless someone is actually targeted by one of them and appeals their way to the highest court.

[up][up][up][up]Its understandable to keep a relatively small force behind... but that country is a lost cause because the political war has been lost for about 5 years anyway. But that discussion is probably off topic.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:13:17 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46359: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:14:35 PM

Afghanistan its propbably not worth the effort.

The Kabul goverment can probably holds it own together, but the Taliban will continue to thrive.

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#46360: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:15:46 PM

So did Hitler. And, frankly, had Lincoln lived today we'd have pulled Godwin's Law on everything he did.

The problem, in my opinion, is that the way we're fighting the War on Terror (TM) it will never end. And after a few more years of war, Americans will have no objections to any tactics, no matter how unethical. Look how quickly our stances on assassination and torture have eroded. We're creating enemies as fast as we kill them.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#46361: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:20:09 PM

Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus too. We did okay.

It wasn't a good thing when he did it. It isn't a good thing now.

What do you think guys? Is Afghanistan secure enough as it is, or does it need further support?

We've been in Afghanistan for too long already. We shouldn't have even been there in the first place. We should get out already.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46362: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:23:50 PM

The Afghan government does seem a lot less stable than the new Iraqi government did.

Also Karzi reminds me of General Thieu.

[up][up] Drugs, Terror, Gangs, Poverty.

We really need to stop declaring war on things that aren't countries.

[up] Of course it was a good thing when Lincoln did it. It stemmed Confederate efforts in Maryland.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:28:23 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46363: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:27:19 PM

[up][up][up]

Except that Hitler hadnt been born and that the country went to war.

Like... a real war.

[up]

Like, did it change the course of the civil war? Did it allow the North to win? How many innocent people where wrongly deatained? Also, this lasted a couple of years. Its not, like this war on terror which is kinda endless.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:33:44 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46364: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:28:09 PM

Just for fun, that is Charles Krauthammer.

I did some digging around and I managed to find a picture of Young!Krauthammer.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:32:10 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46365: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:29:26 PM

[up]

Whats up whith this Krauthammer guy I keep hearing about?

edited 5th Jan '13 7:29:36 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46366: Jan 5th 2013 at 7:30:59 PM

He's a comic book villain given life, basically.

Fox News anchor. Once said that the Hurricane Sandy relief was "Rape of the Treasury."

I found another picture. President Ford is in the middle. Young!Rumsfeld was to the left and Young!Cheney was to the right.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:56:46 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#46367: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:00:58 PM

Of course it was a good thing when Lincoln did it. It stemmed Confederate efforts in Maryland.

Putting aside the fact that I think that the secession was valid and that the Union had no right to invade (I'm of the opinion that all relationships must be voluntary, and the relationships between the states that seceded and the federal government wasn't voluntary, or they wouldn't have seceded), is what you're saying that the ends justify the means?

OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#46368: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:04:54 PM

The Union could not have stood if there was a way to back out of it when times got too hard or there was a disagreement. Eventually, the threat of secession would have made any form of progress impossible.

Also, relationships between nations are not the same as relationships between people.

And the ends always justify the means after the ends have come and gone. That's why we still use the medical data that folk like Mengele and the Japanese gathered during WWII.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:06:02 PM by OhnoaBear

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46369: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:09:58 PM

Joseph Kennedy III and Elizabeth Warren have been sworn in as Representative and Senator, respectively.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46370: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:12:22 PM

Well, its sort of pointless to discuss Linconl's decissions.

I mean... why are we even comparing Obama to 19th century presidents? Thats usually not a good sign.

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#46371: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:18:23 PM

The Union could not have stood if there was a way to back out of it when times got too hard or there was a disagreement. Eventually, the threat of secession would have made any form of progress impossible.

If people legitimately don't want to continue to be a part of the nation, then we should let them split off. If they are just using it as a ploy, we could always call their bluff.

And the ends always justify the means after the ends have come and gone. That's why we still use the medical data that folk like Mengele and the Japanese gathered during WWII.

Which doesn't mean we should emulate said means. I'm not saying we shouldn't take advantage of stuff that bad people did badly, though Mengele was a terrible scientist who had bad enough work that the other Nazis would just burn his work because it was just so terribly done.

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46372: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:20:55 PM

this whole "the ends always justify the means"...

I would say this issue is slightly more polemic that you make it out to be Mr.Oh No A Bear...

[up]

Not really. Invading the South was by all means probably a good thing. People have the right of self determination, but they kinda lose it when they slave a proportion of the population almost as large as said citizens of said nation.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:22:29 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46373: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:21:11 PM

At least this Union talk is on-topic.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:22:22 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46374: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:21:11 PM

Slavery was our responsibility, because those people were slaves when they were still part of the nation. It's basically a massive human rights failure to not engage in war at that point, because we as a nation would have been turning a blind eye to a social injustice that we'd already basically been okay with for way too long.

That being said, if the South had never been part of the US in the first place? Totally agree, that invasion was uncalled for.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46375: Jan 5th 2013 at 8:22:30 PM

I do wonder how the states would've been had the South succeeded. Probably another war.

edited 5th Jan '13 8:22:54 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

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