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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46326: Jan 5th 2013 at 2:15:59 PM

I used to like Krauthammer. Now...

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#46327: Jan 5th 2013 at 2:54:38 PM

Oh yeah, because helping the people who live in and around one of the most important cities in the States, is a total waste of money, but pouring money into the military, which quite frankly doesn't need that much money, is a completely responsible use.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#46328: Jan 5th 2013 at 3:14:41 PM

While suffering from a total lack of compassion, Krauthammer does have a point. There were a lot of special interests profiting from the disaster relief plan.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#46329: Jan 5th 2013 at 4:14:40 PM

Banning cosmetics being idiotic is why the assault weapons ban was idiotic and was pretty obvious feel good legislation.

Fight smart, not fair.
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46330: Jan 5th 2013 at 4:24:26 PM

If its a feel good legistlation, then why not pass it again?

Also, to the people who say Obama is tied by the Republicans... he didnt vetoed the NDAA... even do he said he was gonna.

And now you can be detained indefinately and you dont have Habbeas Corpus, the most basic and fundamental right of "liberal" democracies, Who I wander, could ever deffend Obama and the House for such a thing as the National Defense Authorization Act.

edited 5th Jan '13 4:25:20 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46331: Jan 5th 2013 at 4:43:07 PM

Representative Thomas Massie proposes repeal of federal gun-free school zones

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46332: Jan 5th 2013 at 4:47:43 PM

I fail to see how that would have deterred him. He could still walk in and open fire on the class before people can react. Honestly if I was contemplating shooting up a school I'd just make a bomb. It kills a ton of people (myself included) and I can't be stopped by idiots with guns.

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#46333: Jan 5th 2013 at 5:04:41 PM

[up] The logic goes right back to allowing people to carry guns in or near schools for the purpose of self-protection, which some people are adamantly against the idea of. Teachers or other faculty (including security guards) no longer being restrained from doing so by federal law. Concealed Carry Permit holders can carry in schools, etc.

If dangerous criminals think that they will encounter armed resistance, they will generally avoid trying to shoot up the place, and as it's pointed out, something else will be targeted instead.

edited 5th Jan '13 5:10:01 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#46334: Jan 5th 2013 at 5:09:17 PM

You seem to be working on the basis that the deterrent effect of an armed school outweighs the hazard of a school in which a lot of people are armed.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#46335: Jan 5th 2013 at 5:10:33 PM

[up] And you're making the assumption that I completely support the idea of arming teachers. I do not.

I'm simply stating the point that knowing that there is an area that is devoid of deterrent is possibly a motivation for why certain areas, such as schools or public malls, etc. are targeted by mass shooters.

edited 5th Jan '13 5:13:14 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46336: Jan 5th 2013 at 5:13:56 PM

I don't want guns near my kids unless they're in the hands of trained professionals. Even then I'd prefer a taser. That's what the officer at my school carries around. His gun is only for emergencies.

The reason for this is that you cannot magically pretend some students won't find out who's carrying. They will and a group of them could easily overpower the teacher. Stealing a bit from the pro-gun side, it's akin to putting up a neon sign that says "Hey kids, you don't have to worry about stealing guns from your parents anymore! Your teachers will kindly provide them for you!"

edit: [up]Well in that case I'd say place an officer there. I don't think it will do much good but it's better than teachers being armed. Columbine had guards from what I recall.

edited 5th Jan '13 5:17:16 PM by Kostya

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46337: Jan 5th 2013 at 5:15:09 PM

Clearly, we need to make teachers into cyborgs with subcutaneous pockets for heavy weaponry. That way, they'll be armed, but the guns can't be stolen.

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#46338: Jan 5th 2013 at 5:21:09 PM

[up] I think the discussion for Human Enhancement is another thread, but I'm sure, in the future, police will have an Auto-9 that ejects out of their calf when they encounter armed resistance.

I don't know if placing armed guards, even former police officers or military security, would be appropriate or necessary. Then again, most of the schools I went to had quite a few security measures, and the ones I see here in California (and also some of the ones I saw in Texas) have gates and more guards already.

[up][up] Columbine did have an armed guard, who was not at the school itself when the shooting occurred. He (and the other unarmed security officer) was off the school campus, watching a spot where teens were smoking.

edited 5th Jan '13 5:22:35 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46339: Jan 5th 2013 at 5:25:42 PM

Oh? Well that's one thing I didn't know.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#46340: Jan 5th 2013 at 5:55:23 PM

Also, to the people who say Obama is tied by the Republicans... he didnt vetoed the NDAA... even do he said he was gonna.

And now you can be detained indefinately and you dont have Habbeas Corpus, the most basic and fundamental right of "liberal" democracies, Who I wander, could ever deffend Obama and the House for such a thing as the National Defense Authorization Act.

If I recall correctly, the NDAA got support from more than three-fourths of the Senate, making it immune to Presidential vetoes.

And the reason for passing it is that the NDAA is the legislation that keeps the U.S. military funded; not passing it is like a miniature version of going past the debt ceiling, except in this case Democrats and Republicans agree that it's a bad idea. Unfortunately, in this case a completely unrelated amendment was added to the bill that would suspend habeas corpus, and there's no simple way to vote against that part of the bill without voting against the whole kitten-caboodle. And even if you think a temporary military shutdown would be worthwhile to keep this legislation from passing, if the Democratic Party is seen defunding the military, regardless of the reason, then a Republican controlled Senate would be all but guaranteed next election cycle.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#46341: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:04:34 PM

Unfortunately, in this case a completely unrelated amendment was added to the bill that would suspend habeas corpus, and there's no simple way to vote against that part of the bill without voting against the whole kitten-caboodle.
<eye twitch> Now I am reminded of the dirty trick that was attempted last year to sneak SOPA/CISPA through Congress by attaching it with an anti-child porn/abuse law proposal. Please tell me that I wasn't the only one who thought that was ridiculously reprehensible.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#46342: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:08:47 PM

Also, apparently, that part of the NDAA is largely just reiterating stuff already put into law by another bill.

edited 5th Jan '13 6:09:36 PM by RavenWilder

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46343: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:09:04 PM

Of course it's reprehensible. Why do you think a lot of people want riders to be outlawed?

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46344: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:09:16 PM

[up][up][up][up]

No.

Congress can overide a President's veto if two-thirds of the Senate and House vote against it.

The President has to use the veto, before Congress can attempt to override it.

edited 5th Jan '13 6:12:03 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46345: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:11:38 PM

Yeah but since it was passed by so many people to start with they can just override it anyway. In this scenario Obama was smart to pass it since it would pass anyway and he doesn't give them something to use against him.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#46346: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:12:13 PM

But if it's gonna be overriden anyway, what's the point?

Also, there is technically a way to get rid of this troubling legislation without new laws or courtroom challenges: the law only allows indefinite detention while America's military conflict with Al Quaeda is ongoing; if America stops fighting Al Quaeda, the law becomes moot.

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46347: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:31:47 PM

The senate specifically added an Amendment that say

"We are not going to suspend Habbeas Corpus for United Sates citizens in the U.S"

And the house voted against it, even if Obama has said he would vetoe it, "he did not".

Furthermore when he first signed the NDAA he did some fancy legal thing in which he said he would not enforce the ability the bill gave him to have the military detain any citizen without due process... Not that it matter much because his succesors could run with it anyways.

This times he did not do such a thing.

Also Habeas Corpues is the Number 1 right in a democracy. The golden standard. The thing the glorious revolution was fight for.

It justified defunding the U.S. It justified everything.

As Benjami Franklin said "Those who sacrifice their liberty for security, will deserve neither and lose both"

Obama is no better than a fascist.

Of course the media did not cover this. And Americans think that they have freedom of the press... is more like freedom to be manipulated and indoctrinated.

edited 5th Jan '13 6:33:00 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#46348: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:32:58 PM

Godwin's Law. Good night.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46349: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:33:25 PM

Suspending Habeas Corpus is the very first things Fascists do. Godwin law would normally apply, but this is serious people, this is unprecedented.

If it where Bush people would be screaming bloody murder.

edited 5th Jan '13 6:34:40 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46350: Jan 5th 2013 at 6:50:56 PM

On December 2011 vote by the United States Senate to reject an NDAA amendment proscribing the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens, the ACLU has argued that the legitimacy of Habeas Corpus is threatened: "The Senate voted 38-60 to reject an important amendment [that] would have removed harmful provisions authorizing the U.S. military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians, including American citizens, anywhere in the world.

Lets see 100-38 = 62. 66 is 2/3rds of the Senate.

So if all the Senators who voted for the NDAA amendment vote against overriding the President's veto, then veto would not be overridden.

Although this was the 112th Senate, so the 113th Senate might have voted differently.

If it where Bush people would be screaming bloody murder.

Bush did do it back in 2001. The reaction was mild discomfort. Although I don't think it suspended Habeus Corpus for Americans, just foreigners.

I could be wrong about that.

The thing the glorious revolution was fight for.

We fought our Revolution due to lack of representation in British Parliament.

edited 5th Jan '13 7:03:58 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

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