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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#46226: Jan 4th 2013 at 11:35:35 AM

There was a Star Trek episode where Kirk admonishes a society for making war "neat and painless rather than something to be avoided."

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#46227: Jan 4th 2013 at 11:37:12 AM

Star Trek, at least in its earlier incarnations, had a very pacifistic moral outlook. Notably, it used the Klingon conflict as a Cold War analogy, with the Federation playing the role of the benevolent, well, Federation. It got a lot darker in later installments, syncing up in that respect with real life events. Note that the Federation had to deal with insurgents and terrorists, as well as its own General Ripper types, in various seasons of TNG and DS9, and the morality was a lot greyer.

edited 4th Jan '13 11:39:13 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#46228: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:03:20 PM

Plus, when it comes to "blatantly disregarding collateral damage": Who's the most likely to shoot at everything that moves, the guy in his bunker remote-controlling a lump of metal that can only be hurt by AA fire, or the guy treading a warzone where everything that moves is potentially a source of bullets?

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#46229: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:04:06 PM

Good point Fighteer. It's just that, you guys are the one's that got me coming around to the liberal side, so I thought you'd be the first one to fear that America Takes Over the World would come true.

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#46230: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:10:57 PM

Well, I'm personally more hawkish than many liberals in this thread. I am not jingoistic, but there are times when I want to lock the entirety of the Middle East inside a 500-foot high steel wall for fifty years or so. I can't abide the kind of wasteful stupidity that passes for politics in that region, but if those folks really want to come over here and kill Americans — or indeed, citizens of any other country — they deserve the deaths that come to them in retribution.

That said, I also don't think that we have the right to dictate how their governments or economies should work, and we must be able to maintain the upper hand morally as well as militarily. That means not killing without reason, doing our best to avoid innocent casualties, and leaving once our mission is accomplished.

I think that our mission in Iraq was undertaken under false pretenses and was a colossal waste of military and political capital, regardless of how I felt personally about the need to take out Saddam Hussein and his tyrannical regime. I think that our mission in Afghanistan was necessary at the time but now looks like a quagmire from which we will never escape, much like it must have appeared to the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

I acknowledge that many of our current and recent enemies were largely of our own creation, given the need to support rulers and regimes during the Cold War that later turned into monstrous dictatorships. However, this kind of makes it our responsibility to do something about it.

I am not a pacifist by any stretch of the term; I envision a world in which armies are no longer necessary, but that world is a long way away, and as long as there are people who will kill you for a bit of land or a principle, we need to be able to protect our interests with force.

I'm not sure if that counts as a liberal philosophy, a conservative philosophy, or just a pragmatic one.

edited 4th Jan '13 12:15:45 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#46231: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:15:55 PM

I'd guess it's mix of some of each, depending on one's POV. "Conservative" and "liberal" diverge on several topics between the US and Europe, for example.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#46232: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:26:04 PM

Wow, OTC is like no other place. The card-carrying Republican is really a faux-liberal/progressive. And the master of the socialist-progressive bloc is more gung-ho than the Tea Party.

TV Tropes Is Awesome! [lol][awesome][tup]

It was an honor
OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#46233: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:29:01 PM

The American idea of conservatism always seemed kind of confused to me. I mean, the primary tenet that they harp on is small government, but extending government's ability to tell us how we live and who we fight doesn't apparently count towards that score.

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#46234: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:29:53 PM

If I may divert the discussion...

Connecticut town to hold a "videogame amnesty" and mass burning of violent media in the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting attack.

I've learned to hold my tongue and moderate my language when discussing gun violence and its associated politics with Americans, but this mindset truly beggars belief. How many times does a causal link between video-game violence and real-world violence have to be found wanting before videogames cease to be an easy scapegoat and the real causes of tragedies like these school shootings are paid proper attention?

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46235: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:30:36 PM

Of course I'm making the point ironically. Greenspan's full of crap, and I don't buy the Drones Are Bad Mmkay argument either.

[up] Over 9000?

edited 4th Jan '13 12:31:22 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#46236: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:31:04 PM

[up][up]

It wont ever happen. Because people find it far easier to scapegoat something.

edited 4th Jan '13 12:31:14 PM by Midgetsnowman

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#46237: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:31:48 PM

[up][up][up] Please tell me they aren't stupid enough to burn actual video games. Those things probably give of some really harmful fumes.

edited 4th Jan '13 12:32:02 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#46238: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:32:27 PM

Not until the next new form of media is made.tongue

The Reaper Games starts anew.
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#46239: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:32:29 PM

[up][up]

You do realize this is the same nation that created giant bonfires of vinyl beatles albums back in the 60's, right?

edited 4th Jan '13 12:32:37 PM by Midgetsnowman

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#46240: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:32:32 PM

Sadly I agree with Midget.

edited 4th Jan '13 12:33:00 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#46241: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:33:23 PM

And many of them are downloaded. Will they hold a mass burning of hard drives? Dumbasses.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#46242: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:36:41 PM

We'll burn game developers next for their heresy against (the) God (Emperor of Mankind).

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#46243: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:57:39 PM

Sad fact: Humans throughout history are much more likely to blame "the Other" than to search themselves and determine how much of the given problem is their fault.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#46244: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:05:38 PM

Relevent

edited 4th Jan '13 1:21:58 PM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46245: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:25:09 PM

Eh, if we were more likely to 'other' all problems than we were to examine ourselves we wouldn't have any sort of progress at all. But yeah, videogames are a popular target, but I think they're becoming less so in general as people who grew up with videogames are becoming more omnipresent. What with games not being strictly a nerd culture thing and much more mainstream. (Because games are fun and everyone wants to play at least one.)

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46246: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:25:29 PM

[up][up][1]

Sad news.


Sad fact: Humans throughout history are much more likely to blame "the Other" than to search themselves and determine how much of the given problem is their fault.
This.

edited 4th Jan '13 1:32:00 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#46247: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:33:00 PM

My response is generally this.

Japan, the US, and the EU are the biggest consumers of video games to my knowledge. Now, which of these has the highest number of gun fatalities per capita? If you answered US then you're correct. New question, what country has the most lax gun laws? If you answered US you're correct again. Final question, wouldn't this mean that the amount of guns has a higher correlation with gun violence than the amount of violent video games that are available?

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#46248: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:34:55 PM

Its been long determined than violent video games dont induce people to be more violent.

I personally happen to like the most violent type of videogames, and no one who knows me could really call me violent.

edited 4th Jan '13 1:35:37 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#46249: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:35:23 PM

[up][up]

its not only the laws, but the culture, I think. The US culture has this bad habit of absolutely glorifying the idea of either gun-based heroic stands against evil,. or gang violence needing the best weapons.

edited 4th Jan '13 1:35:32 PM by Midgetsnowman

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46250: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:35:24 PM

The NRA doesn't want us to pay attention to that little fact. I'm hoping once the new session resumes the Dems will still carry through on the promise for gun legislation and not drop it.


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