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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46151: Jan 3rd 2013 at 11:03:19 PM

The president doesn't have near as much power as we've been taught to think he does. You seem to ascribe to him near mythical level of powers, but I bet if you were president you wouldn't even be able to do half of what you want. Not even half of half.

And yes, I do believe that Obama cares about the common soldier. It would be part of why he's trying to bring them home, and increase their education and job opportunities.

Your basic rhetoric is verging ever close to Black and White Insanity. And while I don't usually like comparing people to tropes, you're illustrating pretty well why that sort of outlook on life doesn't actually work.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46152: Jan 3rd 2013 at 11:05:43 PM

The President is the one who authorizes all drone strikes. He initiated the no-fly zone on Libya with congressional approval. He ignored the generals' advice when it concerned Osama Bin Laden. He escalated the troop deployment at Afghanistan. I'd say he has plenty of authority as commander in chief.

Hell, just as the president, he can point out how the NDAA bill detains American citizens without trial or due process, and easily say "See what happens in 2014 and beyond if you vote yes on that bill."

Also, he wanted to stay in Iraq, but their new government pushed us out.

edited 3rd Jan '13 11:10:33 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46153: Jan 3rd 2013 at 11:18:41 PM

The thing with Osama Bin Laden turned out to be the right thing to do, and I doubt he ignored his general's advice. Listening to someone doesn't always mean you do what they want. The drone strikes keep American soldiers safe, which is part of the point of having a remote controlled drone in the first place. I fail to see how a no fly zone over Libya is a bad thing, and as you said he had Congressional approval for that particular decision. And if you bring up the other actions, that was done in conjunction with the UN and was a wise move.

And as for the NDAA, the Republicans can gripe "he's against paying our soldiers who sacrificed for us!" and as much as those of us here would see the obvious hypocrisy, there's many others who would not. The Republicans don't need to have this handed over to them. And again, it's being declared wrong by our own courts for obvious reasons.

Also, Irag is a fucking mess. He also conceded to what they wanted instead of being an ass about it, so I fail to see what the problem is there.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46154: Jan 3rd 2013 at 11:23:32 PM

I didn't say that everything he did was wrong. The no-fly zone turned out to be the best possible solution for Libya. Plus, the way Bin Laden was killed was much better than what the generals supposedly had in mind (missile strikes).

However, he did ignore his generals' advice, but it was on Afghanistan, not Osama Bin Laden. Also, the fact that he left is one thing - the fact that he wanted to stay anyway is what gripes me. The NDAA may be condemned as wrong, but we're hardly doing a thing about it.

The drone strikes keep American soldiers safe at the cost of several hundred children, which we covered before. That, and Afghanis are almost literally backstabbing their American allies over there, and we're not still not leaving just yet, so it's counter-intellectual for you to say that.

edited 3rd Jan '13 11:27:54 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#46155: Jan 3rd 2013 at 11:30:21 PM

So you're saying the innocent casualties of drone strikes wouldn't have died if there had been people physically inside the aircraft?

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46156: Jan 3rd 2013 at 11:32:42 PM

[up] I made this point before. If you're a soldier, and you're going to kill somebody, do it personally, where you're just as likely to die as well.

edited 3rd Jan '13 11:33:18 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#46157: Jan 3rd 2013 at 11:36:32 PM

But you said the drone strikes were protecting soldiers at the expense of killing other people. If those people are going to be killed regardless, it can't really be called an expense.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46158: Jan 3rd 2013 at 11:40:13 PM

I was only calling out the Double Standard of Spade's comment about that.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46159: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:27:04 AM

Double standard my ass, Serocco. If a general doesn't do everything in his power keep his men safe, he's got no worth as a general. Same applies to the president. And the drones don't make things less personal; there's still someone that has to make a call, and I find it insulting to our military that you think they'd make any sort of decision like that lightly. Bad calls are made, obviously, but they're still not made lightly.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#46160: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:37:02 AM

[up][up]If you fight war with honour first and foremost in your mind, you lose. Pragmatism has its place. <shrugs> Usually, if you want to get anywhere, at the head of the table.

In politics, as well. Realpolitik: not just a trope. Sometimes, I could wish you'd notice that.

edited 4th Jan '13 12:37:33 AM by Euodiachloris

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46161: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:39:25 AM

Here is a very interesting piece about the Fiscal Cliff talks.

Apparently if it hadn't been for Mc Connell and Biden we would have gone off the cliff.

Here are some of the best parts of the article:

So when Boehner saw Reid at the White House, the normally amiable speaker was steaming.

“Go fuck yourself,” he said, pointing a finger at Reid, according to both Democratic and Republican aides who were there.

“Excuse me?” Reid responded.

Boehner repeated himself. Reid just stared.

The meeting went ahead. Democrats talked tax rates and trade-offs with Mc Connell. But Boehner refused to engage, sitting stone-faced on a deep couch.

They weren’t moving because Democrats had decided that they had gone as far as they could. Reid and Obama had disagreed privately about what their next offer should be. At one point, Reid was unhappy with an idea that Senate aides said came from Obama — to put the change in Social Security benefits back on the table in exchange for a delay in spending cuts and a rise in the debt limit.

Aides said Reid actually tore up the proposal and threw it into the blazing fire in his ornate green marble fireplace. The paper burned. Reid said he didn’t want evidence that the idea had ever been considered.

Deadline day. Over the course of 13 phone calls between Biden and Mc Connell, and others between lower-level staffers, the deal was getting done.

As the two men talked, they began to kill off the grandest ambitions that both parties had brought into the fiscal-cliff debate. Obama, for instance, had said since 2007 that taxes should go up on people making more than $250,000.

That was gone, now. Biden and Mc Connell agreed on $400,000, and $450,000 for couples filing jointly.

The men talked about two other key demands the White House had made. One was that the huge budget cuts called the “sequester” would be delayed to avoid hurting the fledgling economic recovery. Obama had also insisted that any cliff deal raise the national debt ceiling. He did not want a repeat of the crisis that nearly pitched the country into default in the summer of 2011.

Gone, and gone. When Reid got news Monday morning that the terms called for a delay of mere months for the sequester, he called the president. What are you going to do in two months, Reid asked Obama, when the sequester is about kick in along with a new deadline on the federal debt limit?

Republican goals, too, were sacrificed. A party that defined itself by its opposition to taxes would now be asked to raise them. Their ambition to save money by changing Social Security benefits was also cut.

edited 4th Jan '13 12:42:23 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46162: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:43:41 AM

Can someone explain the sequester to me in more detail? This is a thing that happens every year, right?

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46163: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:44:41 AM

The sequester = across the board cuts, half of which were from defense and the other half from domestic programs.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46164: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:49:15 AM

Someone who isn't Serocco and has some understanding of economics.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46165: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:52:58 AM

No need. Article explains my point.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46166: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:53:18 AM

Short answer: More or less what Serocco said.

Long answer: THIS

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46167: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:55:31 AM

To Ace of Spades: Hah! waii

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46168: Jan 4th 2013 at 12:58:37 AM

Most mandatory spending is exempt from the sequester, including: Social Security, retirement programs, veteran’s benefits, refundable tax credits, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), unemployment insurance, food stamps (SNAP), Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), and a host of other programs (mostly those benefitting individuals with low incomes). • Medicare is subject to the sequester in the form of provider payment cuts, but those cuts cannot exceed 2 percent.

Well, those are protected, which are things Serocco constantly says are going to be axed. (Copypastad from Deviant's article.)

Damn, how do I put things in quote blocks?

edited 4th Jan '13 1:00:27 AM by AceofSpades

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#46169: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:00:24 AM

In the debates, Obama said that the sequester would not happen under his watch.

To his credit, it hasn't.

If Social Security won't be cut, how do you explain this?

edited 4th Jan '13 1:05:34 AM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46170: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:32:04 AM

[up] Okay, I think I get it.

The Payroll Tax Cut created a 2 percent tax break in the payroll tax that funds Social Security and because it was allowed to expire at the end of the year, payroll tax rates will increase from 4.2 percent to 6.2 percent.

However its not cutting anything from Social Security, just changing how the program is funded.

edited 4th Jan '13 1:39:07 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46171: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:37:34 AM

When they say mandatory spending, I think it's safe to assume that they have to fund it regardless of where the funds come from. And wasn't the chained CPI thing abandoned? (I'm not even sure what that is, but everyone in charge seemed to think it was an untenable idea.)

Holy shit I am up way too late. ><

edited 4th Jan '13 1:43:19 AM by AceofSpades

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#46172: Jan 4th 2013 at 1:57:49 AM

Senator Pat Toomey (R-PA) has been assigned to the Senate committee that oversees taxation, trade and certain health programs.

BTW This is the same guy who recently said,“Our opportunity here is on the debt ceiling. The president’s made it very clear – he doesn’t even want to have a discussion about it because he knows this is where we have leverage. We Republicans need to be willing to tolerate a temporary partial government shutdown, which is what that could mean, and insist that we get off the road to Greece because that’s the road we’re on now.”

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#46173: Jan 4th 2013 at 3:17:17 AM

If you fight war with honour first and foremost in your mind, you lose. Pragmatism has its place. <shrugs> Usually, if you want to get anywhere, at the head of the table.
Pragmatism that is not sufficiently tempered with morality and ethics is very liable to Jumping Off the Slippery Slope, however. There are red lines that should never be crossed; killing innocent children should never be "an acceptable price to pay" for whatever reason.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#46174: Jan 4th 2013 at 3:22:20 AM

But who is most at fault: The ones who mistook digging children for bomb buriers? Or the ones who used children as bomb buriers previously in the first place?

edited 4th Jan '13 3:22:59 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#46175: Jan 4th 2013 at 3:29:15 AM

Neither. It's those drone pilots and the Armchair Military leaders who don't care if those kids or other innocents get caught in the crossfire (as that report previously linked to by Serocco sadly demonstrates), even when they should know better by virtue of living in a truly civilized, socially and economically stable country.

edited 4th Jan '13 3:29:45 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

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