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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44926: Dec 22nd 2012 at 2:41:59 PM

How do you think this thing works? Generally they don't know for certain but they have a pretty good idea when someone has broken the law and they respond accordingly. The police can't be 100% certain all the time.

edited 22nd Dec '12 2:42:20 PM by Kostya

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44927: Dec 22nd 2012 at 2:56:06 PM

CIA: 'Zero Dark Thirty' is 'not a documentary'

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#44928: Dec 22nd 2012 at 2:59:22 PM

[up]

Love the advert beside that article: ''Freedom''-class LCS...

Keep Rolling On
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#44929: Dec 22nd 2012 at 2:59:45 PM

[up][up]

CIA: "Bears prefer wooded areas in which to shit."

edited 22nd Dec '12 2:59:56 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44930: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:04:46 PM

@ Kostya: They look into people's backgrounds, and they get warrants based on what they legally own and have access to. They get warrants to search the homes and storage facilities that those people have their names attached to by way of ownership/lease/rent. This doesn't apply to family members or friends unless those family members are directly implicated as well. So unless those people whose home has been invaded were somehow directly involved or believed to be directly involved based on some form of evidence (a "tip" is only circumstantial at best), the warrant would not have been served. Proper procedure, and all that.

You can suspect someone of having ties all you want, without evidence, suspicion is not enough.

edited 22nd Dec '12 3:06:09 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Bluesqueak Since: Jan, 2010
#44931: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:08:27 PM

What @Kostya said.

Sorry, but I just can't take 'FBI raid wrong house in drugs bust' seriously as an example of major invasion of civil rights by the FBI.

If you'd picked it to show FBI incompetence, you might have a point.

edited 22nd Dec '12 3:10:28 PM by Bluesqueak

It ain't over 'till the ring hits the lava.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#44932: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:10:24 PM

[up][up]

In other words, you're against the crime of Conspiracy?

Keep Rolling On
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44933: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:12:17 PM

[up] I'm against most Hearsay and any action based around an unsubstantiated rumor. Without direct evidence, or at least a confirmation of eyewitness testimony.

[up][up] I don't think anyone really said anything about civil rights there.

It's an example of why you can't always trust the government to do their job perfectly. They're human, too, and make mistakes. I just don't want to have to be the person to pay for someone else's mistake.

edited 22nd Dec '12 3:15:25 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#44934: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:13:19 PM

[up]

We're the same way. I dont wanna pay for the mistake of some guy at a gun show selling guns with no paperwork or checks to make sure the guy who just bought 10 guns isnt heading to the school 3 blocks over next..

edited 22nd Dec '12 3:13:52 PM by Midgetsnowman

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44935: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:16:48 PM

[up] He isn't affecting you by buying guns at a gun show. He is only affecting you by going down to the school with them.

Again, you can't punish someone for something he might do. Only for what he does, which includes what he says he's going to do. And unless he said it, he hasn't done that, either.

edited 22nd Dec '12 3:18:43 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Bluesqueak Since: Jan, 2010
#44936: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:29:21 PM

[up]But you are punishing people (the FBI) for what they might do. Because you're presuming one case of mistaken identity (FBI raid wrong house in drugs bust!) means that all the other agents are going to do this all the time in the future.

And therefore they should have to knock before entering. And get cast-iron evidence before they apply for the warrant. Of course, the reason they're applying for the warrant in the first place is to get the evidence...

edited 22nd Dec '12 3:30:16 PM by Bluesqueak

It ain't over 'till the ring hits the lava.
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44937: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:32:41 PM

[up]No, and I would kindly ask that you stop making such such presumptions about what I am saying. I said that the ability of the No-Knock Warrant can be abused, and shouldn't always be deployed.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44938: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:35:05 PM

What evidence do you have that it is always deployed? This certainly isn't the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last but this doesn't sound like a daily occurrence.

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#44939: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:38:18 PM

I'm of the opinion that law enforcement in the US has gone way too far in the direction of militarization, of heavy-handedness, and being careless of their relationship with the public. Serving warrants is no more risky now than it ever was, but when you have an expensive SWAT team you have a tendency to want to give it something to do. Dramatic busts look more impressive and let the cops play with more toys.

There's also the problem that so many warrants are obtained based on information from informers, not all of whom are all that trustworthy.

And no-knock raids (or the effective equivalent) raise the risk to everyone — because they push people to mistakes. Cops shoot people they think have weapons, and don't. The people being raided don't realize it's police and shoot a cop thinking they're being attacked by a criminal gang. People die of shock or bad reactions to smoke grenades or the like.

A brighter future for a darker age.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#44940: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:38:53 PM

Interesting debate, but it might be better to move it to the Law Enforcement Thread.

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44941: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:46:06 PM

[up] "Not always" Means "not necessarily be used." Relevant to drug search crimes based on potentially spurious rumor and possible hearsay. Warrants are usually based on something substantial when presented to a Judge, and the warrant is to search for more hard evidence. Maybe the other homes actually did have something substantial, but not that house. That's how it falls through the cracks in -that- system.

But even if they are mistaken, it's usually that it's ruled that it wasn't a mistake at all, and it leaves the home owner with 8 holes in wall. Can't even get the FBI to fix that.

Moving on that way, then.

edited 22nd Dec '12 3:46:34 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44942: Dec 22nd 2012 at 3:49:54 PM

Postal workers continue hunger strike against proposed delivery cuts

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#44943: Dec 22nd 2012 at 4:45:23 PM

Can we bring old Ben back from the dead for a bit? I think we need him to sort this out.

I'm baaaaaaack
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44944: Dec 22nd 2012 at 7:47:23 PM

CodePink Says It Went to NRA Press Conference to Protest Gun Rights 'Propaganda'

I think I said a while back that this round of gun control debate would get ugly fast.

I wish I wasn't right.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#44945: Dec 23rd 2012 at 1:15:28 AM

I'm of the opinion that law enforcement in the US has gone way too far in the direction of militarization, of heavy-handedness, and being careless of their relationship with the public. Serving warrants is no more risky now than it ever was, but when you have an expensive SWAT team you have a tendency to want to give it something to do. Dramatic busts look more impressive and let the cops play with more toys.

There's also the problem that so many warrants are obtained based on information from informers, not all of whom are all that trustworthy.

And no-knock raids (or the effective equivalent) raise the risk to everyone — because they push people to mistakes. Cops shoot people they think have weapons, and don't. The people being raided don't realize it's police and shoot a cop thinking they're being attacked by a criminal gang. People die of shock or bad reactions to smoke grenades or the like.

I'm of the opinion that you are right. Especially because this military action seems to be only directed at people the government doesn't like, rather than people who are legitimately dangerous.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44946: Dec 23rd 2012 at 3:36:38 AM

If Congress doesn’t act on Farm Bill before Jan. 1, the price of milk will skyrocket, according to the National Sustainable Agriculture Coalition.

edited 23rd Dec '12 3:36:54 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#44947: Dec 23rd 2012 at 3:40:39 AM

[up]

Hmm. How interesting.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#44948: Dec 23rd 2012 at 5:54:42 AM

@Devil Take Me, the argument that "Cars are not protected by 2nd amendment, weapons are" leads me to this question:

If you were to weld blades on your car and call it a weapon, would you then say it's now protected by the 2nd amendment therefore you no longer require a license to drive it?

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#44949: Dec 23rd 2012 at 9:17:32 AM

I don't think you need a license to drive a tank on the road. I'm not sure though. There's a number of weapons that don't require licenses because their crime rates are pretty much microscopic fractions of gun homicides (such as flame throwers). Long guns fall into this category, only being used in small fractions of a crime, usually spree shootings (which also make up a small fraction of homicide).

Fight smart, not fair.
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#44950: Dec 23rd 2012 at 9:42:17 AM

In the UK, you need an H (tracked vehicle) licence to drive a tank on public roads.

</offtopic>

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

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