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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44751: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:23:18 PM

Well I think arming every teacher in the country is stupid and ridiculously expensive. At least this would shift the burden onto the citizen and institution.

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44752: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:25:17 PM

[up] The question is. Why? If you haven't done anything wrong, how can you prove that you won't? People deal with problems all the time, have their bad days. Due process.

You haven't done anything wrong. Why are you being punished for not having done anything?

Again, "what is an assault weapon?" What makes it different than a hunting rifle? Again, an "assault weapon" is only different because it has different features.

What difference would a limited magazine capacity have? You have another magazine to change to.

Three months? What about the people who have them now? With the background checks being INSTANT, is there a necessity for people to have to wait longer, and take up space in some storage closet?

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44753: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:29:32 PM

[up]How is this a punishment? Is requiring people to go through various certification processes or driving training a punishment? No, it's to make sure you don't fuck up once you're given the right to do something.

Assault weapons are able to kill more people in a shorter amount of time. This makes it easier to commit multiple homicides. Really there's no reason to have them unless you aim to kill things.

Changing magazines takes a few seconds which can give people a chance to escape or restrain the individual.

I think people who have guns now should have to get certified instead of being grandfathered in. At the very least make them go to safety courses and present psych evaluations. The wait period is to make sure you're not just buying it to commit a crime. It makes you wait and cool off if you're pissed about something.

edited 21st Dec '12 5:30:12 PM by Kostya

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#44754: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:33:46 PM

[up][up]

My question by the same token, is why do you need a gun "RIGHT NOW"

Why cant I be trusted with complex rocket science mathematics right now? why do I need a degree? Why cant I just press buttpons on a console and launch it and see if it works?

Why cant I be trusted to bodyguard the president right now? I saw two kung fu movies, why am I being punished ?

Why cant I just put on a parachute and make cash as a basejumping instructor today?

In short. why do you automatically assume any sort of precaution is a punishment when it comes to guns,when pretty much any other activity or hobby that can potentially endanger other people if performed incorrectly generally requires you have some minimum level of competency? Why do gun owners assume any and all statements that dont involve "sure, here, I'll buy you a machinegun right now" is a devious attempt to disarm them, jail them, and install the Soviet States of America?

edited 21st Dec '12 5:35:20 PM by Midgetsnowman

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44755: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:38:01 PM

@Kostya How does an "assault rifle" allow you to kill more people than a hunting rifle? People who don't know the difference cannot use the argument.

This is a hunting rifle.

This is an AR-15, one of your so-called "Assault Rifles". Tell me what makes this more lethal than the one above.

As for magazine changes, it takes about a second, maybe two to switch. Not long at all.

Five minutes on Google will tell you that any difference is entirely cosmetic.

[up] None of those things are protected as a natural right. Self-defense is a necessity "right now." The ability to state your opinion in a public forum or in the privacy of your own home is a right.

edited 21st Dec '12 5:39:47 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#44756: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:39:09 PM

Deviant, Devil, Japan requires much of what Kostya suggested, especially including the psychological check and the training. And while they don't have police come inspect the home the gun owner is required to tell them where they're going to keep it stored. I really don't see what's draconian about that.

If you want a gun, you damn well better make sure you qualify to own one. If you're deemed mentally incompetent, then too damn bad. It's a responsibility, is what it is, to comply and make sure other people are safe. Hell, we're stricter about goddamned cars than we are about an object whose only use is to kill. It's moronic.

[up]Those seconds matter, because it's seconds where the shooter isn't killing someone and is distracted as well. Someone can use those to escape or tackle the attacker.

edited 21st Dec '12 5:40:24 PM by AceofSpades

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#44757: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:39:32 PM

[up][up]

So you're saying ban both? Okay.

edited 21st Dec '12 5:39:46 PM by Midgetsnowman

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44758: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:40:35 PM

[up] Why would you do that? Is hunting prohibited anywhere?

Stop making illogical, emotional arguments without knowing exactly what is being defended or attacked.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#44759: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:42:03 PM

[up]

I was joking. My overall point though, which you still didnt address, is why is it a punishment and assumed guilt that we want gun owners to pass basic competency tests, yet if I try opening a basejumping school with zero crednetials or skill with it you can bet your ass I'd be jailed within the week for fraud and endangering peoples lives.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44760: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:45:37 PM

The Background Check system is itself riddled with loopholes, data gaps, and mismanagement. Its in desperat need for reform.

And something needs to be done about those damn gun shows.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44761: Dec 21st 2012 at 5:59:14 PM

@ Midgnetsnowman: I've been saying that everyone needs more education and better safety, but adding some things like psychiatric background checks is not going to make things any better.

The "Need" is irrelevant to the Right. Again, self-defense. Do you need a waiting period for a knife, a gate, a length of rope, a locked door, or for calling the cops?

The 2nd amendment, which grants the freedom to the right to bear arms, also grants the collective state to regulate the militia however they choose.

In that choice, the United States has the Selective Service Act of 1917, which requires all male US citizens between 18 and 25 to be registered in case of need for conscription. This fulfills at least part of the regulations of that militia.

And still, our military is currently made up of volunteers.

Should the ownership of firearms be before or after service be required? As a nation with only 3 million active and reserve military, should the other 15 million who are registered and qualified to serve be denied their right because their country does not currently NEED their service? And that's not even counting the number of women who aren't required to serve, either.

Better education, yes. Mandatory? Only if it is necessary to the service of the state.

edited 21st Dec '12 6:02:24 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#44763: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:07:24 PM

Heres how you pass it- name it the "school violence prevention tax". Watch them try to vote against that.

I'm baaaaaaack
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44764: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:09:18 PM

@ Ace: The assumption you make is that a smaller magazine will somehow affect bad guys with guns. This affects good guys with guns much more. In those precious few seconds, a person defending his life will have to make that switch sooner. Remember, criminals are going to be criminals.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#44765: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:20:15 PM

If you own a gun you should be able to hit the other guy within 10 shots.

I'm baaaaaaack
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#44766: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:20:21 PM

I've been watching the news for the past several hours. The firearms ignorance, it BURNS.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44767: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:29:54 PM

@ Joesolo: What if there's more than one person attacking you? What if you are on your own for a few minutes because you can't get in touch with the cops? Especially for some people out in the woods, where it might take up to 30 minutes for cops to FIND your house?

The ignorance of this situation is that you will always hit a target with each and every shot. That only happens in movies.

A responsible gun owner will only fire if they are sure that they aren't firing wildly, but the chance of missing is still there.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#44768: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:30:51 PM

Devil, you don't need to remind me like I'm a fucking idiot child. OF FUCKING COURSE CRIMINALS WILL BE CRIMINALS. And first of all, not necessarily, a bad guy, particularly these school shoot out varieties, apparently just start shooting with abandon. They start shooting first, so it's logical to think they'll run out of ammo on the clip before the other guy, should there be anyone else with guns around.

And "need" being irrelevant to the right is not a good reason not to seek out things like waiting periods and reformation to the piss poor background checks we have, or for requiring psychological checks performed by licensed professionals.

I don't care if you're serving the state, if you want a gun you can damn well prove you're responsible enough to not hurt people with it. That is an individuals responsibility to the public at large.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44769: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:32:38 PM

Immigration and Customs Enforcement set record in deportations

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44770: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:45:54 PM

@ Ace: Licensed professionals believe that video games increase violence, and simply saying you enjoy a few video games could deny you your right. Or you believe that angels exist (alongside military spending and number of people incarcerated or making cheese, America has the highest percentage of adults who believe that).

Psychiatry and psychology are not exact sciences, and there's no completely reliable way for this to be implemented.

edited 21st Dec '12 6:51:40 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#44771: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:51:31 PM

Licensed professionals believe that video games increase violence, and simply saying you enjoy a few video games could deny you your right.

I'm pretty sure there are no licensed professionals who believe that, though, I suppose, I guess I can see your point, there.

To be honest, I'm currently at a point where I'm not entirely certain where I stand on gun control, other than knowing I will never get one myself, so it may not be best for me to participate in this argument. :/

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#44772: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:52:45 PM

The problem is that, again, the only suggestions offered by pro-gun activists are "stop the shootings after they start" and never "prevent the shootings in the first place".

As for trusting American cops in schools? Hell no sucka.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#44773: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:53:23 PM

The psychology professors at my university believe pretty much universally that the media have it backwards. People who like violence are drawn to violent games because they like violent things. It's not the other way around.

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44774: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:55:13 PM

More education. Yes. Support it. Whether it's more classes and range time. I'm okay with this. I don't know if a license works, but mandatory classes and legwork should at least accomplish that other law-abiding citizens will be safer with their firearms.

(I, as a gun owner, who goes to the range every so often, am tired of being flagged by careless idiots in the same shared space.)

It would also hopefully discourage straw purchasers who aren't into guns from buying for someone else. A small percentage of a small percentage is at least a start.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#44775: Dec 21st 2012 at 6:55:37 PM

First of all, the whole proof of video games is bullshit psychology. And most people know that. Certainly most psychologists know that. And religion isn't a mental disease; any psychologist that would think you're sick for believing in a religious thing like angels is not someone who deserves to be in the profession.

And again, Japan does it, and does it regularly. So yes, it can be done reliably. You're bringing up utter bullshit now.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

You also have to take a class and pass a written test. So don't tell me it can't be done. It can and has.


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