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DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44301: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:29:20 PM

If you're attacked by multiple people you just give up. Good luck outgunning them unless you're some action movie hero.

And if what they want is killing you and then raping and killing your wife or daughter?

Are you going to just roll over and die, then?

As they say, a small chance is better than no chance. Aren't you a supporter of "Pro-life"?

edited 18th Dec '12 3:30:09 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#44302: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:31:11 PM

[up][up] Which is why you go down fighting in that particular situation. It ain't action movie heroism, but if they aim to kill you, you may as well make sure one or two of them die with you.

edited 18th Dec '12 3:32:47 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44303: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:33:20 PM

[up][up]Well in that scenario you'd try to distract them long enough for that person to get away. Even if you had a gun though you will die. I can almost guarantee it.

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44305: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:38:19 PM

Well in that scenario you'd try to distract them long enough for that person to get away. Even if you had a gun though you will die. I can almost guarantee it.

And fighting back is not a "distraction?" It might be the best distraction. As, I guarantee you, if the people you're shooting at don't just stand there and let themselves be hit, they will try to get out of the way and hide behind cover, allowing yourself or your loved ones to get away.

[up] Followup on CeCe a few months later.

edited 18th Dec '12 3:39:47 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#44306: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:45:07 PM

I personally find it darkly amusing that Cars, Pet adoption, and most occupations are more heavily regulated than purchasing weapons.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#44307: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:45:20 PM

I'd be glad if Walmart stopped selling guns, personally. For my general area it would mean more business for the locally owned sportsman shops that are worlds better anyway. Though that's somewhat unrelated to the topic at hand. . .

Touching back on risk to others and controlled substances, I wonder if a better comparison could be made to cigarettes (the guns=cars is something of a Godwin variant by now)? While I'm less than sold on how they acquired the data (how do you definitively attribute cause of death to second hand smoke effects?) the CDC attributes aprox. 46,000 deaths to diseases caused by exposure to second hand cigarette smoke. I can't get a solid figure on firearm fatalities, but the CDC states over 31,000 in 2011. Keep in mind I'm kinda rambling on different things popping into my head though, so I'm trying to avoid making any sort of false equivalency. —

Back on general gun control, around my area any sort of talk about it falls on deaf ears. Western NC and the surrounding Appalachian areas have a curious mix of old-time farmers and hunters living alongside nutter doomsday preppers and the odd klansman. It's something of an initiation ritual to buy a child his/her first gun, and just about everyone I know owns at least one or two. For a meaningless personal anecdote, my family has a variety of firearms ranging from semi-auto military weapons to antique shotguns. We take a more utilitarian approach to the weapons; small caliber rifles and shotguns are for hunting and animal control, while the military arms are only used for sport shooting.

Overall I'd consider them to be responsible owners, but I cannot say the same for many others in the area. We have a good share of violent and paranoid individuals who are more than ready to shoot any soul who strays too close. Compounding this is the rather corrupt police force in the area; many are more than ready to help the crazier individuals cover up a crime, and if let's say a hypothetical assault weapons ban were to be put into effect they would be more than willing to help them hide the guns. This has me wondering if this attitude extends to other areas, maybe? I've been rather isolated when it comes being exposed to viewpoints found in other areas of the nation, so I can't really say if the behavior would extend passed the mountains.

—edit, on tobacco vs firearms, I wonder if some simple statistics can be found on regulation vs victims. Say, annual number of victims by month or year following implementation of regulations?

—edits for grammar, sometimes I feel like kicking myself for still making these mistakes. sad

edited 18th Dec '12 3:50:31 PM by carbon-mantis

majoraoftime (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#44308: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:47:40 PM

A more likely scenario with several armed opponents is something like: You're walking through a shady neighbourhood, three dudes approach you, demand the contents of your pockets and say they all have guns. You are carrying a concealed handgun. This is not really a winning situation, gun or not.

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44309: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:51:49 PM

[up]If they do have the "drop" on you, are cornered, and you or your family is not at physical risk, your best bet is to comply in that situation. There are also situations where if you're backed into a corner, having a concealed weapon will still be a good deterrent.

Having a gun is not a license to shoot indiscriminately. It is for self-defense and the hope that you will never need it.

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44310: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:51:52 PM

Devil: Yeah but if the people think you have a gun they're going to have theirs out and pointed at you as soon as they make themselves known. You could, in theory, grab your gun and pull it out and, if you're really fucking lucky, aim before they shoot you but you're still getting shot, gun or no gun.

edited 18th Dec '12 3:52:38 PM by Kostya

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#44311: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:54:23 PM

I think the flawed logic is stemming from the "I need a gun to protect my family from guns" instead of thinking "we should limit access to guns so that my family will not need to worry about gun violence"

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#44312: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:59:18 PM

How often do several armed gunmen enter a random home?

edited 18th Dec '12 3:59:26 PM by Thorn14

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#44313: Dec 18th 2012 at 3:59:51 PM

" your best bet is to comply in that situation"

To be blunt, fuck that criminals don't deserve my money, and given the chance I would rather be able to shoot them.

[up] Not often.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:00:12 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44314: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:02:45 PM

Devil: Yeah but if the people think you have a gun they're going to have theirs out and pointed at you as soon as they make themselves known. You could, in theory, grab your gun and pull it out and, if you're really fucking lucky, aim before they shoot you but you're still getting shot, gun or no gun.

You could also, in theory, run, and hope that a criminal (or his own bullet) is not faster than you. This is not always going to be a reality.

There are a lot of things that could happen. The point of an armed populace is to have another option other than rolling over and giving up.

I think the flawed logic is stemming from the "I need a gun to protect my family from guns" instead of thinking "we should limit access to guns so that my family will not need to worry about gun violence"

The flaw in this argument is assuming that it is only gun violence that a person is worried about. It is -all- violence. Guns are simply the most effective means to that end.

If guns simply did not exist (bans do not get rid of the existence of guns) or were otherwise made ineffective by practical means such as better non-lethal deterrents, there would be no discussion on whether to prevent access to potentially lethal arms of any kind. But since they are the best way of protecting oneself right now, it will still be looked on as being more beneficial.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:03:58 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#44315: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:04:35 PM

We should focus more on non lethal methods of self defense perhaps

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#44316: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:04:43 PM

I'm wondering why almost nobody in a hypothetical mugging or attack situation wouldn't simply try to run away. Do Tropers live by some code where they have to stand their ground if attacked on the street? I have self-defense training, and one of the first things I learned in class was that if you can run away, you should fucking run away. Do may people here honestly and truthfully believe that they could take a life, even if they had to?

edited 18th Dec '12 4:05:30 PM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44317: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:05:14 PM

[up][up][up]Running just means they'll shoot you.

My argument is that even with an armed populace you will still get killed. Criminals are not stupid. If tons of people have guns they'll either shoot you and quickly loot your corpse or point their guns right at the start and shoot you if you try to grab yours. It will solve nothing.

[up]If someone has a gun they could just shoot you in the back. I'd say it's a better idea than trying to fight them but if they want you dead you are going to die.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:06:12 PM by Kostya

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#44318: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:07:29 PM

[up][up] The problem is you have to turn around leaving your back facing armed criminals. obviously if some guy down the street yells "give me your money!", you can run. if they're feet away from you with their own gun, your fucked.

plus, what if their faster?

edited 18th Dec '12 4:07:43 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#44319: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:09:59 PM

Well, could you ban semi-automatic rifles, then? What are those used for?

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#44320: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:10:16 PM

Getting shot in the front vs. getting shot in the back? What's the difference? Besides, you don't know if you're faster than somebody or not, or if a mugger is going to chase you down or not, or if they're going to shoot if you run away or not, if the gun is loaded or not, or if they're able to hit a moving target or not. Running gives you a chance to get away.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44321: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:11:34 PM

[up]I know. You should run. I'm saying that you really have no good options but running is better than fighting even if it's likely to get you killed anyway.

TheBatPencil from Glasgow, Scotland Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#44322: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:12:12 PM

A misguided attempt to be a hero can be just as dangerous as any other course of action, if not moreso. All it takes is one idiot who thinks that he's John McClane to turn a dangerous situation into a tragic one.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#44323: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:12:32 PM

Honestly I think hypothetical "person x accosted by hostile Y" scenarios rely on too many variables to accurately predict the outcome.

Someone breaking into my house? Where are they entering from, are they in the house, how startled am I, etc etc. I'd like to think that I'd quickly grab the shotgun, give a clearly audible warning, and call the authorities, but I really can't say that it would happen like that for certain. Locally a lot of the crimes involving muggings or burglaries have been committed by people intoxicated on alcohol or methamphetamine, so I can't really judge how they would react either.

edit- Ah, still I think there are a lot of things to consider if you're being accosted on the street. Factors about the assailant, distance, time, and location are pretty important. I'd agree that if options are exhausted I'd consider running a viable strategy, but if I clearly had the choice between running and getting shot in the back and fighting and getting shot, I'd honestly prefer fighting.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:21:20 PM by carbon-mantis

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44324: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:13:41 PM

@ Kostya: So, again, are you going to roll over and die if you're going to die anyway? Or would you prefer a fighting chance?

With your passion for life, I would think you would do everything you could.

Yes, I would like to have more options that are not lethal.

Myself, I like the idea of less-than-lethal ammunition like beanbag rounds in shotguns. It may not be as effective, but it is far less likely to kill someone. The problem is that US law is FUBAR with that, and it turns you into the criminal even if something like that is used for self-defense.

A misguided attempt to be a hero can be just as dangerous as any other course of action, if not moreso. All it takes is one idiot who thinks that he's John Mc Clane to turn a dangerous situation into a tragic one.

To which, there's several incidents of people doing this right, and almost none to do this wrong. The recent Oregon mall shooting involved a man armed and ready to engage the shooter. Upon seeing him, the shooter decided to run instead and this prevented more shots being fired.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:16:53 PM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#44325: Dec 18th 2012 at 4:14:08 PM

I thought we were talking about some people jumping you while you're walking through a bad neighborhood. Breaking into a house has too many variables to properly discuss although I still think a gun wouldn't exactly help the situation.

[up]You are completely missing the damn point. Gun or no gun if they want you dead, you will die because I can guarantee they'll get off a few shots before you can aim and fire. If you run you will probably die. I'm sorry but it's just the way things work. Yeah I'd probably prefer fighting but in this scenario (multiple people with guns aimed at me) I know damn fucking well that I will die if I try and fight them. This is why I'm saying the gun will do nothing so it's pointless whether or not you are allowed to have it.

edited 18th Dec '12 4:16:25 PM by Kostya


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