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DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44001: Dec 16th 2012 at 1:31:30 AM

[up] How do you propose to fix this problem without trampling on the rights of people to live their lives without fear of the government as well as criminals and your neighbors? So far, all the answers have been entirely inadequate.

There is no solution to crazy except better defenses against it. Instead of pointing the finger at the tools being used, develop something that will stop people without killing them but stop a threat more effectively than a gun.

I'll be the first person to throw down my guns when someone develops the Phaser from Star Trek with its stun settings. Or at least let people use less than lethal ammunition.

Until then, the 2nd Amendment is there to allow implements that are used to defend families and children. I can recommend training to those who choose to carry guns with them, I seriously recommend safety courses for people who never intend to own guns just so that they understand what to do around them.

People want to focus on a school shooting and say "oh, but if he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have harmed anyone". Don't forget that just a couple hours earlier, someone in China stabbed 22 children. Such a thing could very easily happen in the United States.

If you're going to say "but they didn't die," good news, you prefer children suffering rather than dying. I'm going to prefer that they didn't get harmed at all, and that is what the 2nd Amendment and guns are for.

"Blind defenders of the 2nd Amendment"? Who needs more protection than a blind man who needs to defend himself? The answer is children, and how are you going to protect them in a world where their defenses are going to be more limited than elevated?

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44002: Dec 16th 2012 at 1:37:22 AM

People want to focus on a school shooting and say "oh, but if he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have harmed anyone". Don't forget that just a couple hours earlier, someone in China stabbed 22 children. Such a thing could very easily happen in the United States.

It should be noted that while 22 were stabbed, none have currently died. And from the tone of the article most (if not all) are going to recover.

I'm going to prefer that they didn't get harmed at all, and that is what the 2nd Amendment and guns are for.

Because no one dies in shoot-outs...

edited 16th Dec '12 1:47:29 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#44003: Dec 16th 2012 at 1:44:15 AM

Deviant, if someone's idea of a solution to their problems is to go shoot their mother and a classroom full of five year olds, there is something severely mentally wrong with them. This country has a problem with health care, including mental health care, in that individuals who need it don't go get it because it's so damned expensive.

It takes a lot more work to harm people with knives than with guns, and knives are multipurpose tools. You can't tell me that that many kids would have died at that school (Connecticut one) had the attacker had a knife rather than a gun and have me take you all that seriously. You are relying far too much on humans not making an error in a classroom full of kids.

And right now, the Far Right is full of blind defenders saying "now is not the time to discuss the issue" and Limbaugh actually said that it's disgusting to politicize the issue. IT"S ALREADY POLITICAL AND HAS BEEN FOR YEARS. So I'm not pulling that out of my ass, I'm getting it from the policy makers we have right now and have had for years. And from the paranoia the NRA likes to spread. I'm not talking average joe that's not running things, I'm talking the guys actively creating the legislation that makes guns ever more easy to attain and not even caring if the individuals buying guns are being responsible with them. We have more stringent requirements for driving licenses than we do for guns, and it's fucking irresponsible how we deal with guns as a culture.

And as far as I'm concerned guns are as open to criticism and blame as anything else is, relevant to the issue being discussed at the time.

DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44004: Dec 16th 2012 at 1:47:44 AM

[up][up] I shall reiterate: "If you're going to say "but they didn't die, " good news, you prefer children suffering rather than dying. I'm going to prefer that they didn't get harmed at all, and that is what the 2nd Amendment and guns are for."

The man was also caught before he could hurt more by security guards posted to prevent this sort of thing happening again because of other incidents like this that happened in 2010.

Point being, someone was there who was capable of responding to the situation. As I said before, someone who can handle the situation, like police officers, or even teachers who are capable of handling situations being nearby.

"Because no one dies in shootouts"

Wasn't talking about the person who perpetrated the crime. I'm talking about the victims. I care much less about the person perpetrating the crime.

Again, when you can stop a threat more effectively without a gun than with one, that's the day that guns will lose their support from people like the NRA.

Star Trek phasers. Set them on stun.

edited 16th Dec '12 1:54:33 AM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44005: Dec 16th 2012 at 1:53:39 AM

This thread has convinced me that the far-right and far-left are both batsh*t crazy when it comes to the issue of gun control.

White House won't accept Boehner's new tax offer

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44006: Dec 16th 2012 at 1:59:51 AM

Wasn't talking about the person who perpetrated the crime. I'm talking about the victims. I care less much less about the person perpetrating the crime.

Neither was I. Civilians are killed and injured in shootouts. Especially when it comes to ricocheting bullets.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:00:37 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#44007: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:01:14 AM

Remember, I do find the idea of even having Security Guards regularly in a School disturbing in of itself. What does that say about the safety of America? If you can't even go to school without security guards...

* Shakes Head *

Keep Rolling On
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#44008: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:04:18 AM

...are you seriously? Is he seriously? Really?

Are you equating knives to guns in terms of danger?

Dude. Do you even have any idea how much more dangerous guns are than knives?

I'm trying to come up with some sort of argument for your position, and many other positions on this issue, but I just can't. I've realized that many people are so out of touch with reality that I shouldn't even bother trying to stir them out of it anymore. It's useless.

I've slowly realized this over the past couple of days... I've looked in the mirror, to humanity as a whole, and I'm disgusted. In the wake of this tragedy, we should be trying to stop it from ever happening again; but no. We value our own selfish rights over the natural born rights of children and other human beings.

When will America wake up and look at itself in the mirror, and see how ugly it's become? How, in the darkest of tragedies, we are busy crawling over each other and whining when we really should be taking action.

I'm not the type of person to value my "right to bear arms" over the value of others' lives. I wish everyone was like that.

The United States isn't sinking. But sometimes I wish it was. Just like how, sometimes, I wish the world really was ending.

But there's no end in sight. Not yet. Humanity will slowly drag on and on and on, wallowing in misery and despair and ignorance, until we tear each other apart like rabid dogs.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:05:23 AM by cutewithoutthe

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44009: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:05:50 AM

Again, this thread has convinced me that the far-right and far-left are both batsh*t crazy (and oddly emotional) when it comes to the issue of gun control.

I now realize why it isn't discussed more often.

[up] Also our homicide rate has been going down for 5 years straight now.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:12:09 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44010: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:13:21 AM

[up] As everyone is so fond of saying, guns can kill. The responsible gun owners of the world lay down basic rules for exercising this right. Always know your target, what's around it, what's behind it. You're not to take a shot unless you have a clear line of fire, but yes, ricochets can happen. What is the alternative?

Stun guns, tasers, mace, pepper spray have limited effectiveness and limited range. Good for one or two people without guns, who might have knives or baseball bats, not as useful against someone with a gun.

Rubber bullets, and bean bag rounds might be slightly more effective, but land the people who use them in jail. Even in self defense. The law is interpreted in such a way that if you don't try to kill your attacker, you are guilty of using lethal force when your life was not in actual danger. In my opinion, that's what's batsh*t crazy.

Even in places where there's strong gun control, people can still get shot with them. What is the real alternative?

Who is really out of touch with reality? The world has been on a downswing of violence since the 1990s.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:17:21 AM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#44011: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:14:17 AM

@cutewithoutthe:

...are you seriously? Is he seriously? Really? Are you equating knives to guns in terms of danger?

Dude. Do you even have any idea how much more dangerous guns are than knives?

Of course knives aren't as dangerous as guns, but they are still a threat! And a lot more widely available, to boot.

I'm British, so we rarely meet guns in any shape or form. If we meet a gun, you're either with a farmer or a shooter, or something has gone very wrong. Guns simply aren't in mainstream culture in the same way as the US here, especially since the Dunblane Massacare in 1996, which lead to the outright ban of handguns in the United Kingdom.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:14:47 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44012: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:23:44 AM

[up] To this, here is something that we often take for granted and something that gets passed around from time to time - the handgun shooters in the UK want them back.

The blame is not to be on the tools, but the people. The United States used to be a society built around education and safety. Years ago, the United States Congress chartered The Civilian Marksmanship Program to teach safety about firearms to children and young people. But there aren't enough people who are even taught what to do if they are around guns.

People with children don't even tell them what to do if they discover a gun. Stay away, tell an adult, don't touch it. Instead they want to shield them from the ugly in the world, rather than show them how to handle a situation.

You want to see what is ugly about the US? Our educational system is out of whack, the values being perpetuated are bunk. During the mall shooting in Portland Oregon, people weren't calling for help, they were TWEETING about the incident instead of getting out of the mall. They crashed the cell phone system because they were texting and tweeting all at once, and no one around was capable of doing anything about what was going on until the cops showed up until after it was all over.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:25:41 AM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#44013: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:26:25 AM

The alternative is to slowly crush out our need for them. Just as Greemantle points out, many countries do just fine without them.

Why should anyone have the power to kill? Why should we trade weapons like this? What's the point? Yes, many gun owners are responsible, but on the whole, humanity isn't exactly known for being exclusively responsible with guns. I've lost count of how many times I've heard of gun related tragedies swallowing the locals community news.

Gang violence. Accidents. Massacres. These are things that could all be prevented. And in the case of accidents, that's not a thing that happens with knives or other weapons; shooting a gun is such a deliberate action. Despite taking little effort, pulling the trigger to a gun is one of the most deliberate actions humanity possesses.

Homicides have indeed gone down, but let me ask you this: how much of that is because of better health services in the United States? And how much of that is related to crimes in relation to guns? Because I'm damn sure that hasn't made a difference in my city. Every morning on the news there's always another shooting, always another life taken.

I don't care about your right to bear arms. I don't care about that at all. I care about lives. You don't need that fucking gun. And even if you did, even if you did need it for protection, then you'd be willing to go through background checks, mental checks, any fucking thing. If you legitimately need protection, then you'd be willing to do that.

We need to do something. This is just brutal. And I'm not even thinking about the killing of the children. This is something I was, coincidentally, thinking of the day that the massacre happened, during school before I even had any contact with the media or any knowledge of the event. Actually, in French class, I had a mini debate over gun control with a few of my classmates.

I'm sick of the violence that happens on the very streets I walk, but I'm much more annoyed with how our media almost condones all of it. How it's a "normal" thing.

I've known too many people who were taken away by guns. I've seen the effects of the violence in my community, and I want reform.

But I know that that's not going to happen, is it? We're going back to the status quo, even as we speak.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#44014: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:27:13 AM

[up][up]Source? Because that sounds like your standard Fox News New Media Are Evil story.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:27:26 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#44015: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:27:39 AM

No, we don't need to be taught how to use a gun, we need to be fucking taught how to not use a gun.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#44016: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:42:22 AM

I've gotta say, it is a pretty sad state of affairs when guns are considered a human right, but healthcare is a privilege.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
DevilTakeMe Coin Operator from Wild Wasteland Since: Jan, 2010
Coin Operator
#44017: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:42:53 AM

[up]It's pretty sick, isn't it? Maybe we should make that an Amendment, yanno? Don't forget, as much as I talk about the Consitution and the Bill of Rights, it's still a living document that can be changed.

[up][up] When there's no violence, there will be no need for weapons of any kind. Until then, find a solution that's safer than guns, but as effective or moreso than guns because that is the most modern personal threat we face as civilians anywhere on the planet, even those areas and countries supposedly free of guns.

[up][up][up] CNN as well as MSNBC talked about people who were tweeting while it was going on. My personal bias came from talks with people who were there, Law Enforcement officers who made statements to the press, a friend of one of the victims. Do keep in mind that 10,000 people were in the mall at the same time, and people were calling out and calling in all at once as well as doing all this texting and tweeting. How much of it was exaggeration is uncertain.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:44:34 AM by DevilTakeMe

Glove and Boots is good for Blog!
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#44018: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:43:05 AM

[up][up]

...and one, amongst First World nations, unique to the USA.

Only in America.

edited 16th Dec '12 2:43:25 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#44019: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:47:55 AM

The only reason America is anything notable is because of our inherent, rampant greed and our rebellious ignorance. All of humanity has the potential of this amount of stupidity. All of humanity is guilty of this type of senseless ignorance.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#44020: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:50:13 AM

^

I hope you're not suggesting what I think you are...

Keep Rolling On
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#44021: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:51:04 AM

What? That I've lost all hope in humanity?? Yes indeed I have.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44022: Dec 16th 2012 at 2:56:09 AM

The only reason America is anything notable is because of our inherent, rampant greed and our rebellious ignorance. All of humanity has the potential of this amount of stupidity. All of humanity is guilty of this type of senseless ignorance.

What? That I've lost all hope in humanity?? Yes indeed I have.

Let me play you a sad Song on the World's smallest Violin

edited 16th Dec '12 3:02:27 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#44023: Dec 16th 2012 at 3:08:14 AM

Moving back on-Topic:

CNN and ABC reported Saturday that President Obama has decided to nominate Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) as Secretary of State.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#44024: Dec 16th 2012 at 3:09:06 AM

@cutewithoutthe:

What? That I've lost all hope in humanity?? Yes indeed I have.

There is always hope. As long as there is one human left alive, there is always hope.

Otherwise why would we be here at all?

Keep Rolling On
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#44025: Dec 16th 2012 at 3:17:37 AM

It's not exactly a sad moment. So your sarcasm is appreciated but isn't really accurate.

Anyways. I'm just having a bad time of it all. Usually I've been an optimist about these kinds of things, but recently certain points of my past have been coming back to the surface (my abusive mother, depression, ect), and I've just been kind of hating anything and everything at this point.


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