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Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#43651: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:07:44 PM

[up] Considering it's illegal stuff either way, science can't easily get accurate statistics.

I'm baaaaaaack
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#43652: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:08:23 PM

but since it's illegal it makes sense that those doing it are exposed to other illegal things.

Or to eliminate the other variable, it also makes sense that those doing it are exposed to other things that make you high.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43653: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:10:41 PM

I suppose that by that logic, a gateway drunk only functions as a gateway if it's illegal. Which makes "marijuana is a gateway drug!" as an argument FOR legalization. Weird.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43654: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:12:05 PM

It's possible for people to go either way; they might stick to drugs they like, or they might be drugs users in general, willing to try different things. But it does look like going from legal to illegal drug takes quite a leap. Most people that smoke or drink in recreation don't think of using heroin. Drinking especially; my Thanksgiving lunch gathering had some wine-tasting and people there aren't drug addicts.

..And now I'm thinking that marijuana being a borderline drug helps bridge the two categories, creating an actual gateway.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:12:59 PM by Trivialis

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#43655: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:14:15 PM

[up] eyup.

and it'll probably stay that way, even with legalization. people go to smoke it, think it's not so bad. "i wonder if that other stuff isn't as bad as they make it sound either" and next thing you know another crackhead.

I'm baaaaaaack
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43656: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:16:31 PM

Eh, it's not quite that simple, joesolo. If that was the case, then everyone who's smoked pot and liked it would be a crackhead. And that's very much not the case. There's lots that simply stick with the pot. Not to mention that getting addicted is a multi-step process.

And would make a very respectable income growing it if it was legal, so hey, there's the small business man the Republicans want to create opportunities for.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:17:06 PM by AceofSpades

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43657: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:22:14 PM

Considering that nicotine is both more addictive and more damaging to one's health than cannabis, the idea that only the latter is a "gateway" drug fails to pass the WTF test. The major difference is that one is illegal and the other is not.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#43658: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:29:37 PM

[up]

Considering that nicotine is both more addictive and more damaging to one's health than cannabis, the idea that only the latter is a "gateway" drug fails to pass the WTF test. The major difference is that one is illegal and the other is not.

Then how about swapping the two 'round then, or making both illegal?

Keep Rolling On
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#43659: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:30:19 PM

And would make a very respectable income growing it if it was legal, so hey, there's the small business man the Republicans want to create opportunities for.

With how often you'd get people circumventing regulatory and tax costs via black market or growing and sharing their own stuff (cannabis is a ridiculously resilient plant compared to tobacco), I'd be surprised if it paid for its own regulatory agency.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:36:27 PM by Pykrete

pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#43660: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:30:58 PM

If we're bringing anecdotal evidence into it, a good chunk of my peer group at university were weed smokers (including myself) and I never even saw any evidence of harder drugs, never mind being tempted to try them.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43661: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:32:02 PM

Greenmantle, there is no chance that tobacco or cigarettes would become illegal at this time. It's too ingrained into popular culture, and so is "to make smoking inconvenient and unpopular", as Fighteer put it. The status quo is very strong here.

[up]I guess that is due to general public acceptance of cannibis and the growing culture that sets them apart from "really bad things" like methamphetamine.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:33:54 PM by Trivialis

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43662: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:39:19 PM

Greenmantle, we're not going to illegalize tobacco here, and I don't understand why you seem to be pushing that.

Pykrete, well, that doesn't seem to have stopped the dispensaries in California from making a profit. Or Colorado and Washington from deciding to try it. I'm pretty sure that it'll pay for its own self just fine.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43663: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:43:39 PM

My point is that there is no argument for marijuana as a gateway drug that does not apply in equal measure to tobacco, except that one is legal and the other is not. Making both legal would eliminate the validity of the argument.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43664: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:45:04 PM

The only issue is that, as I said, being borderline illegal (with several states freely tolerating it) helps bridge the gap, but that can be mitigated by the cannibis culture emphasizing marijuana over drugs in general, much like how alcohol consumers do with drinking.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#43665: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:50:42 PM

Pykrete, well, that doesn't seem to have stopped the dispensaries in California from making a profit.

You mean the ones that was a practically unregulated and unaccountable free-for-all in the first place, and continually dodged what little was there? Yeah, they made shitloads of money. Surprise.

California dispensaries were like, a prime example of how not to go about regulating it.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:52:46 PM by Pykrete

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#43666: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:51:06 PM

@ Ace:

Greenmantle, we're not going to illegalize tobacco here, and I don't understand why you seem to be pushing that.

All right, I'm not for smoking. I've got asthma, and I think cigarettes are a waste of money and of life. I think it is just a means of slowly committing suicide. And it smells.

Simple.

Not very conservative, I'd admit. But I'm human, and allowed to have exceptions.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:52:52 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#43667: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:56:28 PM

Greenmantle, I have weaker, but similar problems due to cigarette smoke. It's affected me terribly, making it harder to do my job, and I already feel like an old man. And I'm only 29. I understand your position.

However, making it illegal will not stop it at all. Moderating it through therapy, taxes, and so on will do something better. I also agree with the pubic place thing. I do not agree with actual making it illegal, only because it fails to actually do anything useful.

Quest 64 thread
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#43668: Dec 12th 2012 at 2:59:07 PM

Yeah, it should be noted smoking bans in buildings isn't to make smokers quit, and while customer tastes and complaints are a factor it's not the primary one. The main focus of those laws is to protect employees who would be exposed to it for long enough periods of time to actually be a considerable health hazard.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43669: Dec 12th 2012 at 3:00:11 PM

[up][up] Ha, ha, you said "pubic". grin

Anyway, making marijuana legal would allow it to serve as a place for experimenters (young and old) to go to experience a "high" without needing to take the additional step of breaking the law. The motivation to move on to something harder like cocaine, meth, etc., is actually less at that point.

Now, no matter what you do there will be people seeking out more intense highs and/or seeking out drugs for their other side effects, like GHB. Although frankly, alcohol is the biggest date rape drug there is; it's just harder to "conceal".

edited 12th Dec '12 3:00:23 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43670: Dec 12th 2012 at 3:00:58 PM

Yeah, the best thing we've done to stop smoking isn't making it illegal. Making drugs illegal makes them cool, desirable, and something people don't feel they can get help for without ruining their lives.

What really works to discourage drug use is making it uncool and socially unacceptable. That's what all the smoking bans do. They make it unattractive. It's what really killed the amount of crack users too. Crack users have a media reputation of being ugly and uncool and socially unacceptable. As a result, the amount of people who did crack plummeted.

Make it legal. Make it very uncool. And encourage people to get help without locking them away forever.

The biggest push to keep these things illegal is the private prison systems.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#43671: Dec 12th 2012 at 3:03:20 PM

Umm, topic guys?

Any news on the replacement of Jim DeMint? I've heard good things about Herb Silverman.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#43672: Dec 12th 2012 at 3:04:21 PM

@Fighteer: I would change that, but that's too funny.

I should probably take a break from looking at porn, eh? tongue

Anyway, I still have to get to the doctor to see why I'm quite literally so out of breath.

Quest 64 thread
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43673: Dec 12th 2012 at 3:06:46 PM

So to reiterate Enkufka's comment, why don't we have a drug thread? Since we got about 5 pages of interesting talk. I'm pretty sure carefully formulating it would be fine for a general policy discussion, since this is the mature OTC. tongue

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#43674: Dec 12th 2012 at 3:13:07 PM

Threads about drug policy on this site tend to devolve into social demonstrations that don't reflect well on loosening said policy.


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