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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43576: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:25:18 PM

[up][up] Absolutely nothing in the way of drugs.

It's been the best thing Portugal has ever done.

The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

Portugal's case study is of some interest to lawmakers in the U.S., confronted now with the violent overflow of escalating drug gang wars in Mexico. The U.S. has long championed a hard-line drug policy, supporting only international agreements that enforce drug prohibition and imposing on its citizens some of the world's harshest penalties for drug possession and sales. Yet America has the highest rates of cocaine and marijuana use in the world, and while most of the E.U. (including Holland) has more liberal drug laws than the U.S., it also has less drug use.

edited 11th Dec '12 8:27:18 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43577: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:28:15 PM

That's not talking about availability though, but about criminal justice. Lowering the penalty for drugs and providing more treatment is actual necessity.

But I still think certain drugs are just a threat to public safety.

edited 11th Dec '12 8:28:51 PM by Trivialis

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43578: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:30:29 PM

And making them legal decreases the threat they are to public safety because it means that people with addictions get help instead of arrested. The place that drug use is the worst is in prisons. Making it illegal doesn't fix the issue. Treating it as a medical and social problem does.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#43579: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:30:52 PM

Portugal's drug policy has a mixed record, but here are the facts:

  • Drug use among adolescents (13-15 yrs) and "problematic" users declined.

  • Reported lifetime use of "all illicit drugs" increased from 7.8% to 12%, use of cannabis increased from 7.6% to 11.7%, cocaine use more than doubled, from 0.9% to 1.9%, ecstasy nearly doubled from 0.7% to 1.3%, and heroin increased from 0.7% to 1.1%

  • Reduction in drug related deaths, although this reduction has decreased in later years, and the number of drug related deaths is now almost on the same level as before the Drug strategy was implemented

  • Reduction in HIV diagnoses amongst drug users by 17%

To me, this all makes sense.

edited 11th Dec '12 8:37:59 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43580: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:32:28 PM

Then in your view, what kind of things should not be publicly sold because they're just not safe?

OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#43581: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:32:34 PM

[up][up]What are those use percentages measuring, exactly?

And that last one is a good point that is worth keeping in mind.

edited 11th Dec '12 8:32:51 PM by OhnoaBear

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43582: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:36:40 PM

[up][up] I think that if someone is selling something that kills people they should be the ones arrested, not the drug users. But use the same sort of common sense laws on it that they use for the FDA on prescription drugs. Don't criminalize the use. Prisons and criminalizing drug use do nothing for the problem. What they really need is treatment. Not prison.

We honestly have bigger issues with people abusing prescription drugs than illegal ones. We need better social care for drug issues. This is a job for hospitals and therapists. Not police.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43583: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:38:25 PM

I guess we're talking about different things, because I was talking about selling drugs, not possessing them. IMO, severe hallucinogens should remain banned.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#43584: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:40:37 PM

Wal-Mart CEO says 'fiscal cliff' affects U.S. shoppers

severe hallucinogens should remain banned.

I agree with this. I've seen what the really heavy stuff can do to people and it is terrifying. We should not allow it to be legally sold and advertised.

edited 11th Dec '12 8:43:02 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43585: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:42:08 PM

I believe that they should be legal but regulated. Anyone who commits crimes while high should be sent to treatment. Anyone who isn't hurting anyone and just making an ass out of themselves should get a fine and mandatory therapy. But it shouldn't be illegal.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43586: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:44:30 PM

I guess we're in disagreement. I feel that there's an analogy between drugs and guns. We allow sales of certain basic guns but think some weapons are just unnecessary and dangerous to give to just any individuals. Similarly, drugs that can really harm other people shouldn't be sold to people.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#43587: Dec 11th 2012 at 8:45:09 PM

[up]

I'm in a firm agreement with @Trivialis position.

Pelosi To GOP: "Where Are The Cuts? They're In The Bills That You Have Voted For"

edited 11th Dec '12 8:56:32 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43588: Dec 11th 2012 at 9:01:47 PM

Actually, the banning of certain weapons is equally ridiculous and also does nothing to stop crime.

What does stop crime is increased gun safety regulation, increased treatment for mental illness, and better screening of potential gun purchasers for histories of violence and mental illness.

In both cases people are guilty of demonizing the object when what is really needed is a better social safety net and saner laws that actually help people instead of indiscriminately banning things.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#43589: Dec 11th 2012 at 9:04:45 PM

[up]

Looks it's very likely the legalization of a drug means it will become more widely used. I don't want the real heavy stuff in use. It does the most f*cked up things to people.

If down side is that I'm screwing over the few who currently use it illegally, than I can live with that.

Although I agree with you on Gun Control.

edited 11th Dec '12 9:07:59 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#43590: Dec 11th 2012 at 9:39:13 PM

Just a little protip: most people, myself included, don't care for murderers any more than you do, regardless of where they stand on the death penalty. This is about legal ethics, not feelings.

Anyways, I pretty much agree that drugs need to be treated as more of a social problem than anything else.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#43591: Dec 11th 2012 at 9:45:41 PM

Yeah, the problem with legalizing something is that legitimizing the practice does swell the market. Unless the product is incredibly cheap to produce and not regulated or taxed to any cumbersome degree, the black market can easily undercut those costs and will grow instead of shrinking.

We do need to start replacing blindly punitive measures with rehab and detox, but legalizing drugs all over the place isn't such a hot idea IMO.

edited 11th Dec '12 9:46:19 PM by Pykrete

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#43592: Dec 11th 2012 at 9:48:49 PM

Legalizing most drugs would remove most of the 'mystique' from them, but drugs like Crystal Meth should stay banned. Basically, if it can kill you during production even if you're doing everything right, stands a chance of randomly exploding and can kill you without warning, it shouldn't be available to anyone. Bath Salts to, although that's more because it doesn't seem to have an upside to its use.

Topazan from San Diego Since: Jan, 2010
#43593: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:03:39 PM

[up]Would people still make or use crystal meth if better, safer drugs were available? At the very least, wouldn't OSHA or something require improvements be made to the manufacturing process to make it safer?

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#43594: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:12:22 PM

People use methamphetamine because it's stronger than cocaine. If we're going by terms of how much it'll get you high, then methamphetamine is considered one of the "better" ones.

Meth faces the same sort of dichotomy that cocaine does - "speed", the pill form, is the one that rich and middle-class people take. It's very expensive. "Crystal" - the smokeable form, is the cheap inexpensive one for poor trailer trash.

The issue is that meth is cheap and, to drug addicts, is very, very nice.

edited 12th Dec '12 8:28:05 AM by Completion

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#43595: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:13:52 PM

[up][up]Would making an OSHA compliant meth lab may be too expensive for any company to make a profit?

edited 11th Dec '12 10:14:29 PM by Lascoden

boop
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43596: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:16:20 PM

Isn't meth the one known to cause paranoia and explosions? Or, at the very least, enough paranoia that the makers will sometimes rig their houses?

Topazan from San Diego Since: Jan, 2010
#43597: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:16:42 PM

[up][up][up]Well, at the very least, legalization would cause the more expensive ones to come down in price.

[up][up]That's another thing. I'm wondering if in a legal market crystal meth would lost the "cheap" advantage.

edited 11th Dec '12 10:17:18 PM by Topazan

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#43598: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:18:47 PM

[up][up]

Yup.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43599: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:19:17 PM

Eh, most people don't want to get arrested. If meth remained illegal while other drugs were legalized, most people would go for the legal ones. By and large, most people don't want that kind of a ruckus in their lives.

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#43600: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:28:14 PM

@Lascoden: There already are OSHA factories. They're called Adderall factories.

@Topzan: Meth would still be used because in terms of illicit drugs, speed is still considered one of the "better" drugs and is not seen as ghetto.

edited 11th Dec '12 10:35:38 PM by Completion


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