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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#43501: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:23:51 PM

The point "teachers are taxpayers too" made me think about something: why are they?

I mean, yes, there is no way in hell any electorate would ever allow government workers to not pay taxes and all that, but why don't they get a sort of "Employee's Discount" from the state or federal government to mitigate their necessarily lower wages? Would that cause a huge economic or revenue problem? Is there even a way to structure the idea without risk of seeming or actual corruption?

EDIT: As a random example, say that state workers could be exempt from state taxes but required to pay federal and vice versa.

edited 11th Dec '12 1:25:43 PM by OhnoaBear

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#43502: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:24:56 PM

The alternative is worker's co-operatives like Mondragon, in which the union owns the company, or consumer cooperatives like Mountain Equip Co-op, in which to be a customer in the first place you have to become a member, which means becoming a shareholder and having effective membership in the union.

I'd like to see those business models get big in the States, because if they do, they can lobby the federal government to overturn Right to Work at the federal level, based on the argument that they can compete fairly against unionized corporate businesses but not union-free ones.

EDIT: I'd like to note that a big threat to teachers are politically minded school boards. Texas Board of Education, I'm looking at you.

edited 11th Dec '12 1:26:14 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43503: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:26:58 PM

[up] Socialist as those sound, I can't help but think that's the way forward.

It was an honor
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43504: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:27:22 PM

I would rather teachers get a genuine pay raise than have them not pay taxes, really. People already have this false idea that teachers are privileged, so exempting them from taxes would exacerbate the living hell out of that issue.

Anyway, I'm not saying teachers shouldn't pay their fair due to the country via taxes and/or union dues. I'm saying they should get their fair due via better paychecks and general respect from the rest of the country.

Hell, I think the only kind of government employee that's exempted from taxes are soldiers.

@Radical, don't get me started. I fucking live here and I hate those guys.

Wait, what does Mondragon sell? It sounds a bit much to require that a customer, of all people, be part of a union for something they don't work in.

edited 11th Dec '12 1:29:19 PM by AceofSpades

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43505: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:28:52 PM

You know, you could actually make the argument that not taxing them would be cheaper than taxing them. It would save millions of man hours all over the country and thus millions in tax dollars. After all, they're being paid out of tax dollars in the first place. It would just be putting the money right back in the system it came out of .

edited 11th Dec '12 1:29:18 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43506: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:31:08 PM

That... doesn't really make sense, shima? What man hours does that save? A teacher would still have to fill out a form to prove they're tax exempt, and IRS employees would still have to file that sort of paperwork. And it doesn't save the government money at all, because that's revenue they're not collecting.

And from there, you spread the idea that the same applies to cops and such, losing more revenue and shifting more and more of the tax burden onto other people who aren't government employees. Because of this, that's inherently unfair.

Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#43507: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:34:26 PM

Maxima: as I understand, the main reason people are hesitant to call out unions is because of a current Double Standard in modern discourse: when corruption in a union comes to light, loud calls get sounded about why unions are evil and should be completely abolished; meanwhile, when corruption in a corporation comes to light (which is far more frequent, and often ignored as non-news in the first place), there will be possibly outrage against the corrupt individual, and sometimes that specific company as a whole. There's never railing against the idea of having corporations at all.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#43508: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:35:02 PM

[up][up]So's the concept of a progressive tax. Fairness is a noble illusion at best and one we are better disabused of, I think.

edited 11th Dec '12 1:37:04 PM by OhnoaBear

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#43510: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:37:50 PM

Socialism is a broad church.

"Socialism" in America is generally associated with the U.S.S.R or Communism. The right plays upon this association to slander any Democrat consorting with "socialist" European parties - a particularly ridiculous one was a right-wing pundit (I forget who) saying Obama was "socialist" for meeting with representatives of the British Labor [another dirty word in US politics] Party - despite the fact that the Labor Party is one of the two main parties of government in the UK!

The trouble is "socialist" in Europe generally means "social democracy" or "social liberalism", two things which are far removed from the Marxist conception of politics. For instance, see the Socialist International. Look at the full members. How many of those countries are totalitarian nightmares?

Saying that the U.S.S.R or NSDAP was "socialist" is like saying hot dogs are made with real dogs.

edited 11th Dec '12 1:42:38 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43511: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:39:39 PM

Bear, you have some weird ideas about fairness. It's a valid concept to consider, and to discuss what we think is fair and just. And "progressive tax" is fair in that it only asks bigger shares from those who are least affected by the loss.

So Mondragon is a bit like Wal-Mart in that they sell just about everything? Okay.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#43512: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:40:50 PM

Wal-Mart doesn't sell insurance, produce industrial parts, build construction projects, or manufacture appliances.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43513: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:44:22 PM

Okay, so more than everything.

Why exactly do they require customers to be part of the union? That seems... strange to me.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43514: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:47:11 PM

To make sure things are fair for the customer as well and that the prices are not so out of line that no one can afford to buy what they're making. The company is basically taking and balancing all the market forces together by talking to everyone involved.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#43516: Dec 11th 2012 at 1:53:39 PM

some hard statistics on what Right to Work laws do to states, backed up with links to the studies it cites.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#43517: Dec 11th 2012 at 2:09:41 PM

Actually, Ace, as a worker's cooperative Mondragon doesn't do that. Mountain Equipment Co-op, as a consumer cooperative, does. Slightly different business models. What Shima said applies perfectly to MEC.

edited 11th Dec '12 2:10:38 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#43518: Dec 11th 2012 at 2:22:03 PM

@Ace of Spades: Military personnel are only exempt from federal taxes if they're in a combat zone. Even then they pay FICA. Wheter or not they pay a state tax while living there varies from state to state.

Trump delenda est
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43519: Dec 11th 2012 at 3:01:24 PM

People already have this false idea that teachers are privileged,

Please show me who actually thinks that. [lol]

when corruption in a union comes to light, loud calls get sounded about why unions are evil and should be completely abolished; meanwhile, when corruption in a corporation comes to light (which is far more frequent, and often ignored as non-news in the first place), there will be possibly outrage against the corrupt individual, and sometimes that specific company as a whole. There's never railing against the idea of having corporations at all.

This is a damn good point you make. But it's the Double Standard I'm against in the first place. Truth is, whoever is the "in"-crowd; and mind you, that changes depending on location; the above scenario plays out. On these threads, and in liberal enclaves, people call for the abolishment of the stock exchange and corporations and capitalism all the time (check the OWS threads).

Point is, nobody will make any progress as long as they think the good they do exempts them from any introspection. I've learned that the hard way.

It was an honor
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43520: Dec 11th 2012 at 3:06:13 PM

When have any of us said that they should be immune from introspection? We aren't blind to the bad things that they do, but when the bad is far outweighed from the good, we're loathe to support things that will greatly decrease the good and have only a minimal impact on the bad.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43521: Dec 11th 2012 at 3:13:23 PM

Republicans as whole, Maxima. Romney and Perry specifically wanted to make cuts to education. Perry wanted, as part of his bid for president, to do away with the Department of Education. He's made several cuts to education here in Texas. At one point, he took money away from the funds for education and GAVE IT AS A SUBSIDY TO OIL COMPANIES. You have no idea the depths of my anger for this particular action. I also hate Perry.

So yes, the idea that teachers are over privileged is a thing that exists. And you can't tell me it doesn't exist when I live in the state that has some of the most severe issues regarding that.

My larger point is, it's easier to fire the truly bad teachers when you're treating teachers as a whole far more fairly and they're not experiencing attacks from all sides.

edited 11th Dec '12 3:20:07 PM by AceofSpades

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#43522: Dec 11th 2012 at 3:14:50 PM

[up] HE GAVE EDUCATION MONEY TO OIL COMPANIES?!?!

...the fuck is wrong with this world?

I'm baaaaaaack
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43523: Dec 11th 2012 at 3:16:58 PM

Everyone knows that because gas is a perfectly competitive market, consumers are perfectly elastic in regards to price changes, so that every dollar of subsidy to the gas company is passed on to the consumer. That's just basic economics!

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43524: Dec 11th 2012 at 3:18:18 PM

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/09/29/332152/perry-budget-cuts-teacher-financial-aid/

More specifically, here's some recent actions of his. With plenty of other links in that article about how his generally terrible actions have negatively affected the population.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/fighting-the-feds-2012-candidates-want-states-to-control-education/

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/09/26/328524/perry-appointees-raid-public-school-funds-to-give-oil-refineries-135-million-tax-break/

This is about what happened last year. More about appointees, but they're Rick Perry appointees.

So yeah, Maxima, you can talk to me about firing bad teachers after this complete and utter bullshit which hoses every single teacher in my home state, and several others, has been eliminated.

edited 11th Dec '12 3:21:38 PM by AceofSpades

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#43525: Dec 11th 2012 at 3:19:42 PM

@Ace: ...What. I... What. What sort of cruel and heartless person would cute education money to subsidize oil companies, simultaneously hurting the futures of our children and contributing to the further degradation of our already damaged environment.

edited 11th Dec '12 3:20:04 PM by deathpigeon


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