TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

QuestionMarc Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#43451: Dec 11th 2012 at 9:42:54 AM

It sure look irrelevant now that I actually saw numbers.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43452: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:01:11 AM

No group of people living inside the United States can hope to make any form of secession work out in practice, even if they can manage to technically sever themselves from the Union. The closest things we have to that currently are the Native American reservations, which, while technically not part of the United States, depend almost entirely on it for their continued existence.

edited 11th Dec '12 10:01:34 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43453: Dec 11th 2012 at 10:57:24 AM

This is kind of a bizarre question; Exactly how can you give in on the issue of Right to Work and still retain collective bargaining? I ask because apparently that's a question they're asking on CSNBC, and it seems somewhat contradictory to me that that's a thing labor unions can bargain on.

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#43454: Dec 11th 2012 at 11:24:05 AM

the free state thing really isn't noticed by most of us. it pissed off some people in new hampshire though, which is supposed to be their target state. apperntly 1 or 2 "free saters" have been elected, but as members of the democratic party.

I'm baaaaaaack
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43455: Dec 11th 2012 at 11:47:35 AM

I'd be pissed too if I was a native New Hampshirite. People moving in to just to do that kind of violates the rights of the people who already live there and are fine with how things are.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43456: Dec 11th 2012 at 11:49:06 AM

re: Right to Work - Well, it seems to me that the legislation's only effect is that instead of workers being de facto members of the union by having their wages automatically taken, they have to join willingly.

I don't think it makes the union suddenly non-existent. Or the terms of their CBA's for that matter.

It was an honor
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#43457: Dec 11th 2012 at 11:50:42 AM

You can still recruit people into unions with Right to Work in place, but since any nonunion employee can freeload off the unionized ones without paying the fee, there is less incentive to join the union. Now if only the unionized workers were covered by the labor contract...

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43458: Dec 11th 2012 at 11:52:12 AM

Just what is the benefit of joining a union? I thought one would capitalize on that.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43459: Dec 11th 2012 at 11:52:26 AM

[up][up] That is an intriguing idea.

re: benefit of a union - The idea is that they'll argue for the best deals for a worker as possible. The fact that many union workers in blue collar work have better salary and benefits than others with college degrees is one such ostensible result of collective bargaining.

edited 11th Dec '12 11:54:33 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43460: Dec 11th 2012 at 11:56:20 AM

Here's another place where we need to work on the education factor, Starship. Not meaning any disrespect, especially as there is such widespread misunderstanding of unions out there, but it is really one of those things that you need to know.

Unions only function if the majority of the workforce is in one. Allowing membership to be voluntary may sound good on paper, because "OMG those evil unions clipping people's paychecks for nefarious ends", but in reality it's a recipe for weakening them to the point of irrelevance. Just look at the health insurance situation: all those people out there who don't buy it because they don't see the need for it, since they are healthy.

That only works until you do, in fact, need it, at which point it's too late to get it. Same with unions. Worker solidarity is required in order to effectively execute the purpose of a union's existence, which is to form a bargaining unit that can stand against management.

Plus, making union membership voluntary tacitly empowers businesses to coerce employees not to join — for example, by offering them additional pay or other benefits. [down] Or, indeed, by firing anyone who joins a union.

Make no mistake, uniform right to work laws would spell the end of unions as we know them, and thereby enable an entirely new wave of predation by employers in a situation that's already dire for workers. Look at Wal-Mart if you want an example.

edited 11th Dec '12 12:00:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43461: Dec 11th 2012 at 11:59:29 AM

That and it's also not illegal to fire people for joining a union on right to work states and replace them with new employees. In fact, you can be fired for anything with no reason in Right to Work states which makes if far easier to oppress minorities as well.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43462: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:01:53 PM

I still don't understand why union membership should be compulsory.

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43463: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:03:11 PM

Because if it is not, businesses are free to discriminate against union members. Unions are an absolute necessity in a free-market society because they are the only non-governmental force capable of opposing the unrestricted power of business.

Unions balance the scales, in other words. Without them, business holds an overwhelming advantage in labor negotiations.

Strong unions lead directly to improved pay and work conditions, which increases overall prosperity. Corruption exists, to be sure, as it does in any enterprise, but the degree to which union corruption is an issue tends to be vastly exaggerated in the media.

edited 11th Dec '12 12:04:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43464: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:04:30 PM

And because if it's not compulsory your employer can make it so that you aren't allowed to join one at all. That means that you have absolutely no power to get better working conditions.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43465: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:08:46 PM

We get into the idea of the "social contract" here, wherein some sacrifices are necessary on the part of individuals in order to benefit the whole. At least, that's how I see it. It goes hand in hand with requiring a higher effective tax rate on the rich, or requiring that everyone buy insurance or pay the fee.

In order for everyone to get a higher paycheck, and better healthcare, and a safer workplace, we all pay a fee to whatever union is relevant to that work. And having the numbers that a union creates is the only way the poorer people can balance out the influence of an employer's money and political influence that wields. At least, that's how I'm interpreting all these arguments.

Unions need to be better at getting their message out. They did that incredibly well back in the beginning of the labor movement, but boy have they sucked at that in recent decades.

edited 11th Dec '12 12:09:17 PM by AceofSpades

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43466: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:08:50 PM

This probably wouldn't be a big problem if we weren't in feudalistic times where getting a job was such a big deal, instead of making your own living. It's saddening.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43467: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:09:11 PM

One argument against unions is that the pay and benefits they negotiate can render a business uncompetitive; this is one reason cited for the failure of Ford and GM which caused them to seek bankruptcy. I would assert that there are balances that can be struck in this regard, but if you can't pay a full time employee a living wage, there's something wrong with the system.

Also, yes, we're still in a feudal labor market, which is kind of ridiculous for this day and age.

edited 11th Dec '12 12:10:16 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43468: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:10:25 PM

Game Theory/Prisoner's Dilemma stuff comes into play when it comes to union participation.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43469: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:14:34 PM

You touch on part of the issue here Fighteer. Someone saying "you're automatically a part of this whether you want to or not, for the sake of the greater good" doesn't usually fly. Part of the reason being, what exactly is the "greater good".

Now, mind you. I used to be big time anti-union. After the 'lights came on' a few pages back, I've done some re-reading of current and past events, and now I'm beginning to rethink that position as well.

Still, with all that said, I still find myself somewhat allergic to the broad and sweeping socialism; and this is what forced union membership seems to imply.

It was an honor
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43470: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:16:48 PM

There are a lot of people who work multiple jobs and still can't make enough money to live on and have to get welfare on top of that.

That's a huge part of the reason we're in a demand crisis right now. Companies are getting twice as much human labour as they used to, but they're still paying the same amount.

Without Unions you're basically turning people into slaves at the whims of masters. They have no ability to get paid enough to live on. They have no ability to fix unsafe conditions. There are people working two jobs and starving to death.

In a supposedly first world country.

That's what it used to be like before unions. It's still what it's like in Right to Work states.

edited 11th Dec '12 12:19:30 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#43471: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:16:58 PM

@Starship: Well, if you're not forced to join a union to work at, say, Boeing, then there's nothing to stop Boeing from firing unionized workers and replacing them with non-union workers at lower wages.

Back in the day, we called them scabs. tongue

Edit: can't arrow today, have derp.

edited 11th Dec '12 12:19:14 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43472: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:19:57 PM

Starship, all forms of social participation can be considered intrusions on freedom. Cherry picking particular elements of it because you don't like them is missing the point entirely.

You have to wear seat belts to drive or ride in a car. You have to keep your business safe for workers (unless you're in a movie). You are forced to pay taxes whether you agree with the things that your taxes are funding. Our society restricts freedom in millions of ways that make it better for everyone to live in overall.

edited 11th Dec '12 12:20:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43473: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:21:41 PM

I think you need to re-think the "evils" of socialism. There is a thing called Christian Socialism, and in fact they share a lot of the same core values, despite one being a religion and the other a political philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

Socialism is basically about making sure we all get a fair shake at whatever dream it is that we have. And about making sure that human beings are treated with the dignity a human being deserves. Yeah, there are some ideas that don't totally work in reality, but the basic idea of socialism are good things. We need to dispel the wrong idea that socialism is about handouts, because it's not that at all.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43474: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:24:50 PM

And what about the abuses in the other direction? Fighteer mentioned the auto crisis, during that time, there were jobs banks that allowed people to get paid for going to work and doing nothing. Not nothing in a metaphorically sense, nothing as in read the paper or look up college classes.

Or the fact that under a union firing underperforming employees becomes about as difficult as swimming in quicksand. Or the fact that, it seems, unions want to create it so nobody can be fired, thus removing nearly any incentive to actually work hard.

Thoughts?

It was an honor
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#43475: Dec 11th 2012 at 12:26:58 PM

[up]

Well. Its a matter of scakle, maxima. Which is worse to you.

The fact Unions can sometimes push unfair levels of empoloyee compensation upon a business, or the fact that without unions, there is absolutely nothing that can stop your boss from firing you or massively cvutting your wages for even the slightest offense or whim because they can just hire someone else the second you annoy them?

edited 11th Dec '12 12:27:18 PM by Midgetsnowman


Total posts: 417,856
Top