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TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43376: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:33:38 PM

Well, I'm actually reading Gospel of Wealth right now in between posts (Again, why the holy fuck don't we read things like this in school. I mean, no offense to Jane Austen, but this shit right here explains so much).

Anyhoo, he made an important point about the "new rich". The next generation of rich. I really thought the whole point of America was that you and I can become THE new rich.

And maybe that's all this situation needs. Instead of crackhead rich kids who wouldn't recognize a mop if one walked up and kicked them in the balls, we have some ordinary people who know what wealth is supposed to be for. And use it to make a difference.

(Beat) I'm being hopelessly naive again, aren't I?

And the idea that if we tie the salaries of a top earner in a company to the lowest paid, that would help somewhat with the wealth disparity. I'm not sure if that would work.

Wait Ace, are you saying something like...a variable salary. If your company is doing well, then you make a ton, along with your employees. But if not, then your pay dips with your employees.

That sounds like the purest form of capitalism I've ever heard of. Why don't we do that again?

edited 10th Dec '12 2:36:08 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Chalkos Sidequest Proliferator from The Internets Since: Oct, 2010
Sidequest Proliferator
#43377: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:36:18 PM

EDIT: I apologize, I just love the Progressive Era so much that I keep talking about it even when the point's been made, and further waxing poetic about the Gospel of Wealth on my part is probably off-topic.

edited 10th Dec '12 2:38:26 PM by Chalkos

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43378: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:37:58 PM

We already have those things, Maxima. The Republicans have, largely, drowned them out.

What did you think the Buffet bill was named after?

But now people are agreeing more and more with Obama and Buffet and the like, thanks to Obama's populist strategy of going out and talking to people. Republicans are criticizing this "populism" now, because it's turning the tide of public opinion against them and their goals.

[up][up]Yeah, that sounds right. I'm terrible at remembering economist jargon.

But we don't have it, again, because of Republicans slowly chipping away at taxes over the years, and because of de-regulation and the attacks on unions that fight for fair salaries.

edited 10th Dec '12 2:39:11 PM by AceofSpades

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43379: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:38:27 PM

You're being hopelessly idealistic, Starship. You always try to see the best in people, Starship. It's nice, but it often blinds you to really horrible things. You have a tendency to not believe that people are capable of the depravities that they fall to. It's why it seems to hit you so badly when the reality of the situation gets pointed out to you.

You walk through the world with rose coloured glasses.

edited 10th Dec '12 2:39:01 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43380: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:39:20 PM

[up][up] The destruction of the dream that makes it American. (beat)

I don't know how to feel about this. This is a revelation to me, and yet this white man who couldn't be more different than I am, is speaking things that make sense to me and he's been dead nearly a hundred years.

edited 10th Dec '12 2:43:12 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#43381: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:40:32 PM

But, Costco's CEO pays himself something like (as of my last reading on this particular company) $500, 000 a year and manages to pay his workers over fifteen dollars an hour, as well as keeping prices low.

I feel I should note that that unskilled manual labor job also pays more than the software job I needed six years of college for.

edited 10th Dec '12 2:41:56 PM by Pykrete

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43382: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:41:13 PM

That's the thing about history; we need to learn from it. And learn that some issues last longer or are more timeless than we realize. *shrug* Can't help it, minor history nerd.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43383: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:42:52 PM

My notion of discouraging excessive executive pay is not to put in mandatory compensation caps, but rather to cap the ability to deduct business compensation in excess of a certain ratio of employee compensation.

Let's say you decide on a 10:1 ratio for the sake of an example. If your lowest-paid worker earns $50K gross and your highest paid executive (counting all forms of compensation) earns $500K gross, then all of your company's payroll goes in as a liability and offsets earnings.

However, if you pay your CEO $1M, then the excess amount ($500K) is exempt from that offset, so you must pay corporate taxes on it as well.

This penalizes excessive compensation without forbidding it.

edited 10th Dec '12 2:45:02 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Chalkos Sidequest Proliferator from The Internets Since: Oct, 2010
Sidequest Proliferator
#43384: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:44:07 PM

[up][up]Hear hear!

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43385: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:45:14 PM

You walk through the world with rose coloured glasses.

I...wish I could say that's not completely true. It's just...the idea that my life wasn't written, that I could make it awesome beyond imagination, limited only by my guile and guts.

It seemed to make life worth living. I haven't lost that hope. It's just that I feel like I knew I had to walk 100 miles to achieve it. Upon reaching mile 30, you realize someone couldn't add and it was really 1000 to go.

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43386: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:46:16 PM

Starship, that's a great dream, but please realize that Republicans aren't interested in you succeeding in that dream, despite all their rhetoric. You've bought into it for much of your life, but it just ain't so.

What they actually want is for you to believe that they want you to succeed in that dream, so that you continue to vote for policies that benefit the rich at your expense.

edited 10th Dec '12 2:47:52 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43387: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:54:21 PM

@ Starship: The thing is, the Republicans like to forget that they didn't walk that road all on their own. Their parents helped them walk at first. Maybe gave them a ride. Their teachers helped them get farther. Their employees carried them. The government made it so that the road was smooth, well marked and they didn't have to wander around the wilderness without a map.

And then, when they get there, they forget about all those people and decide that all the credit is theirs, and that none of those other people deserve any success.

The Democrat point of view is that working together we can all go longer and farther and bigger and grander. If you help the people at the end of the road, they'll all push you farther even if you need to give up a little of your resources to get them there.

We all succeed or fail together. No man is an island.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#43388: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:57:13 PM

If you help the people at the end of the road, they'll all push you farther even if you need to give up a little of your resources to get them there.

The hangup in that reasoning is that the super-rich have no incentive to buy into that idea, because they're making so disproportionately much that they wouldn't see a better return for playing nice.

edited 10th Dec '12 2:57:50 PM by Pykrete

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#43389: Dec 10th 2012 at 2:59:14 PM

Which is why the government has to force them to play nice. The fact that they screw over the poor to stay on top just proves why regulations and social programs are needed.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#43390: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:00:45 PM

[up][up][up]Not strictly true.

At one point, the majority of Republicans realised that society was rather important... and was part of what you endeavoured to conserve and improve along accepted, moral lines (for a conservative set of morals).

And, then "Greed is Good" landed with a thud.

edited 10th Dec '12 3:01:40 PM by Euodiachloris

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#43391: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:10:20 PM

[up]

...and related to that strand of Conservatism is conservation of the environment. It's not always a left-wing thing you know*

...

Keep Rolling On
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43392: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:12:11 PM

Conservatism isn't a "wing" at all. It's just trying to remain in whatever state you're in without being disruptive with excess changes.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#43393: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:14:34 PM

[up]

That's the sort of Conservatism I support.

Keep Rolling On
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#43394: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:17:26 PM

[up]Well, assuming that the state you're in is an acceptable state. It isn't for everyone, and often with good reason.

What's precedent ever done for us?
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#43395: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:21:23 PM

[up][up][up][up] Similarly, there are liberals who don't believe in climate change. There are liberals who are pro-globalization (hi!). There are liberals who are pro-war. Liberals and conservatives aren't defined by an arbitrary set of things that people support or are against. They are defined by an outlook on life. For example, I'm a radical. Not because of any issue in which I support one side over another. I'm a radical because I believe that it is often best to just flip the table, and start from scratch with something wholly new. That affects my views on a lot of things, but it isn't defined by my views on any issue.

Similarly, conservatism isn't about what issues a person supports. It's about an outlook on life. A conservative is someone who distrusts change, and wishes to be careful when moving forward. That's an outlook I can respect. Carefulness is needed to temper the ideas of people like me, just as people like me are needed to move us forward.

edited 10th Dec '12 3:21:53 PM by deathpigeon

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#43396: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:24:51 PM

[up]

Similarly, conservatism isn't about what issues a person supports. It's about an outlook on life. A conservative is someone who distrusts change, and wishes to be careful when moving forward. That's an outlook I can respect. Carefulness is needed to temper the ideas of people like me, just as people like me are needed to move us forward.

I just feel that America has forgotten that. It's probably one of the reasons for the divisions in American Politics today.

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43397: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:26:53 PM

The Republican Party in American represents the radical reactionaries who seek to turn back the clock on social and economic issues, rather than a genuine conservative platform of caution.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#43398: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:34:23 PM

Even reactionaries have their place, though not one of as much prominence as they have in modern America. Without them, we might just forget the great ideas of the past that we've since abandoned, but they need to be more on the side lines, just as people like me are probably not the best to be put in charge of a country, since we'd go too wild and probably mess a lot up. Radicals are there to find wholly new solutions. Liberals push us relentlessly forward. Conservatives temper the first two with caution. Reactionaries remind us not to forget the successes of the past.

cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#43399: Dec 10th 2012 at 4:29:50 PM

A bit old, but I found this interesting

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43400: Dec 10th 2012 at 4:46:10 PM

I shall have to follow Maddow more closely, even though Walker ended up not being recalled.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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