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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#43151: Dec 7th 2012 at 9:37:29 PM

...I didn't make the fact up. Source-thing.

...Because people talk to each other. Plus, there are only so many jewelers in a community. And there's not much worth in hoarding jewelry in a gift economy after a certain point.

edited 7th Dec '12 9:38:57 PM by deathpigeon

PhilippeO Since: Oct, 2010
#43152: Dec 7th 2012 at 9:42:30 PM

i don't think gift economy is a good idea.

First, they will strong pressure for people to be seen working. People who looked like or rumored to be relaxing will be ostracized despite the reality.

Second, on a lot of things there are limited/luxury goods, ex : handmade jewelry, for such things market economy do good enough job, it will be more expensive the more people want it, limiting it to 'gift only', would cause 'shadow market' to develop where people give 'gift' who are actually payment (Jeweler would get wine/painting/other expensive stuff as gift), it would just hide the market.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#43153: Dec 7th 2012 at 9:46:39 PM

I'd love to continue this, but I'm beginning to nod off, so I'm heading to bed. Sorry.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43154: Dec 7th 2012 at 9:46:59 PM

While I certainly see a lot of information about the philosophical and sociological aspects of communism, I see nothing regarding scientific output. Unless you're talking about modern day movements, which are not encompassed entirely by anarchists anyway.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43155: Dec 7th 2012 at 10:12:55 PM

[up][up]In case you want to continue later: I suggest making a new thread for it where people can really get into it. Otherwise it will probably conflict with later ongoing discussion.

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#43156: Dec 7th 2012 at 10:13:41 PM

Speaking as someone who's interested in economics and is studying it in college:

Tell me how a gift economy won't devolve into a non-fiat monetary system with consumer goods having comparable value and exchange rates to each other? These goods will eventually be considered to be a type of currency.

How will you prevent this from becoming a market economy with non-fiat currency?

The only way the gift economy will work is if everyone is in on it. Otherwise it's just going to be the same thing you tried to replace.

edited 7th Dec '12 10:18:35 PM by Completion

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#43157: Dec 7th 2012 at 10:49:38 PM

Alternatives to Currency would be a great title for a thread where this discussion was the topic.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#43158: Dec 7th 2012 at 10:53:01 PM

For what it is worth, currency is the best method of assigning value to goods and services. Otherwise, we would be using a different system. The problem is when people become greedy for what is essentially pieces of metal and paper that are only valuable because society deems it so.

edited 7th Dec '12 10:54:12 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#43159: Dec 7th 2012 at 11:02:22 PM

Looked up the VAWA, apparently there is a House version sponsored by the Republicans that is "omitting provisions of the Senate bill that would protect gay men, lesbians, American Indians, and illegal immigrants who were victims of domestic violence". So, are they doing the same thing they did when the two passed different versions of the AHCA? Is that what's going on?

boop
terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#43160: Dec 7th 2012 at 11:16:25 PM

You'd think the Repubs would try to extend the VAWA towards Male WASP victims rather than be so exclusive.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#43161: Dec 8th 2012 at 12:16:50 AM

VAWA stands for Violence Against Women Act. Kind of hard to include males in that. What with the purpose of the act being specifically the protection of women from violence.

[up][up]The Republicans want to deny protections for Native Americans, LGBT, and illegal immigrants. I'm not even sure what their rationale is for denying protections to legal citizens, but they really don't like immigrants in general. What the Republicans want is to pass an act that doesn't extend protections, and is probably piss poor at protecting the people it does cover. They want this to be voted on and in the process it'll probably (this is only if it works, mind) make any other document doing the same thing get dismissed.

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#43162: Dec 8th 2012 at 12:42:56 AM

[up]I think I understand the whole deal now. Thanks for the help. As for the issue of it protecting men, it seems it will do that anyway (gay men, at least) if the new version goes through. Kind of odd that they didn't choose to rename it, though not sure what they'd go with.

boop
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#43163: Dec 8th 2012 at 5:24:22 AM

[up][up]

In short, its more republuican grandstanding to make it look like they "care", just want to stay ideologically pure.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#43164: Dec 8th 2012 at 5:53:32 AM

I love the contradiction: we dislike immigrants (they're automatically lazy, as they don't understand how to integrate into our society etc. etc. etc.)... but, screw the native population, they... they... well, they're lazy buggers, too (let's gloss over the fact that they've been here longer as the first group of immigrants, ever)! tongue

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#43165: Dec 8th 2012 at 5:57:03 AM

Welcome to the Wonderful World of twisted and perverted Ayn Rand logic.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43166: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:04:05 AM

Maybe being homophobic and xenophobic wasn't enough so they had to be racist too so they could just come off as complete asshats. I can't see how that provision wouldn't be struck down as unconstitutional.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#43167: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:18:24 AM

[up][up]Rand had nothing against immigrants, in fact she was one herself. No, this is good old fashioned Americanism, as old as the Know Nothing Party.

Trump delenda est
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#43168: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:26:07 AM

[up]

Pretty much. Its even the same platitudes as every other time

"the Chinese/Irish/Germans/Polish refuse to integrate into american society"

"The Chinese/Irish/Germans/Polish are lazy"

"The Chinese/Irish/Germans/Polish are hooligans and thugs"

edited 8th Dec '12 6:26:21 AM by Midgetsnowman

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#43169: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:39:06 AM

[up]

I wonder if Native Americans said similar things about the first Settlers?

edited 8th Dec '12 6:39:21 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#43170: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:40:39 AM

@Ace:

The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.[128]

Which is why I linked to source 128 on that page.

@Compy: Because it would be beneficial to people as they would find themselves being able to get what they need no matter what, and, once it gets past a generation, it would become more ingrained as people would grow up who never lived under a monetary system would grow up in the gift economy.

Though, as Taoist said, we should probably move this discussion elsewhere...

[up] They probably said more things like: "Who are these people, and why are they claiming this land as ours? Do they know nothing?"

edited 8th Dec '12 6:41:41 AM by deathpigeon

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#43171: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:46:28 AM

[up]

Because it would be beneficial to people as they would find themselves being able to get what they need no matter what...

I'll just say one thing: what happen if what people need simply isn't available, or in very short supply? We're not in a post-scarcity Economy yet...

Keep Rolling On
Bluesqueak Since: Jan, 2010
#43172: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:47:58 AM

There's a couple of science fiction novels - Robinson's Mars trilogy is one - that have society evolving into a gift economy.

If we ever move into a post-scarcity economy, I could easily imagine it becoming a 'gift economy'. But yeah, probably another thread?

It ain't over 'till the ring hits the lava.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#43173: Dec 8th 2012 at 7:13:06 AM

Rand had nothing against immigrants, in fact she was one herself. No, this is good old fashioned Americanism, as old as the Know Nothing Party.
I said perverted logic. In the sense of "Everyone is lazy except for the good ol' Job Creators and Makers."

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#43174: Dec 8th 2012 at 7:18:02 AM

I think we need an economics thread, that'd be a better place for arguing over discussing gift economies and what not.

I'm baaaaaaack

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