Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Fighteer, to be honest with you, I always had this idea of becoming wealthy. I was going to own a house, I wouldn't have to panic if I got laid off, I'd be able to travel....
What you describe in the quoteblock above...may be one of the most singularly horrifying things I've ever read. What you describe sounds like literally just piling money...to pile it.
You're cool because of some number in some bank's computer?? Not because, you can take care of your family. Not because now you and your buddies can fly to Vegas for a wild weekend and you don't have to check your vacation bank. Not because you can afford premier passes at comic cons. Not because you can do shit like...give back to the community.
But simply because a bunch of people with no joy slowly transform you into one of them.....
I'd rather be eaten by a pack of rabid dogs than suffer such a gruesome fate.
edited 7th Dec '12 1:45:08 PM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honor@Starship: It's entirely possible to have money and not be consumed by it. It just takes a certain strength of character that isn't found in all people, including wealthy people. There are plenty of cool rich folks who don't constantly suck at the trough for more, but share themselves most generously. Many of those folks support liberal causes — Warren Buffett comes to mind.
It's no more fair to paint all rich folks as evil than it is to paint all poor folks as virtuous, or vice versa. There are some folks out there who are going out of their way to harm people in the course of their own self-enrichment, and those are the ones who must be fought. Sheldon Adelson, the Koch Brothers, the people in charge of Wal-Mart... they're the problem. But many of them don't see it that way because of the self-imposed bubble they live within.
Our best and most powerful tactic is to support education. Get people to understand how economies work, even at a basic level, and the tolerance of the voting public for the BS sold to them by Fox News and its ilk will evaporate. Heck, even the "mainstream" media like CNN and CBS happily play the Cult of Centrism game, counting on their audience to buy into the appearance of reasonableness, even though the facts are entirely different.
edited 7th Dec '12 1:56:58 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I just wish that the same lesson we went over was taught in every school. It's sad that I learned most of this stuff from forums, instead of...let's say High School. We've got such a huge swath of the nation actively voting against their best interests.
On the "Rich people ebil, poor people good thing" One of the problems is, rich people have a lot more power than poor people. Hell, that's pretty much what evil is in this world. It's that petty, self-centered dickishness, the human bouts of frustration, short-sightedness, blind self interest that everyone has from time to time. The problem is, usually people can only affect themselves, and their immediate social circle with that sort of behavior. When you're the leader of a massive corporation, and people depend on your for your livelihood, that sort of pettiness has far-reaching consequences. A perfect example of this are those CE Os who laid off workers, just because Obama won.
Evil isn't some mustache twirling dark lord. It's just people being people, and not fully realizing or caring about the consequences of their actions.
edited 7th Dec '12 2:06:21 PM by DrTentacles
This. This a thousand times.
I spent money for a degree, and it took a bunch of fiction nerds to help me see something akin to the truth. I can't think of anything more pathetic.
It was an honor@Dr Tentacles: In this case the operative principle is to judge them by what they do, not by what they say. If only that worked everywhere.
@Starship: It's normal to go through a crisis of faith (literally) when this sort of revelation occurs. You can comfort yourself by knowing that you, and indeed most people, are basically decent at heart. The trouble is matching their self-interest to the interests of the country (and world) as a whole, and that's where education comes in.
As for me, I was attracted to this site because I'm a fiction geek, but that doesn't mean I can't have open eyes and ears and a curious mind. Much of what I know now I didn't learn in school either. That's a real shame.
edited 7th Dec '12 2:07:22 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I'm a bit late, but yea, they do pile money just to pile it. it's why there are CE Os making millions while laying off employees to "cut costs".
I'm baaaaaaack
Like Hostess, for example. As pure a case of vulture capitalism as I've seen in a long time, and they had the nerve to try to pin the blame on union workers refusing to take a 25% pay cut.
Do you think it would be possible to make laws against CE Os and other executives running companies into the ground, while reaping the profits? The idea that such CE Os will be punished by the hand of the free market by never being hired again doesn't seem to have born fruit, especially since some of those people will never need to work again, with the profits they've reaped.
@Maxima: "You did built it" isnt completely false. people do successfully create companies and wealth out of hard work and good ideas.
The problem is it ignores one teensy tiny little problem.
Yes. I may have built my own company from the ground up. But what about the old man who's been my janitor since the first day I opened my first shop? what about the truck drivers that distribute my product? What about that one time I was at a business meeting and talked to just the right new person to land an amazing business contract? What about my other employees and their contributions to the company's fortunes? What about the postal workers and road workers and policemen that keep my business working safely? Why do I deserve 15-25 times more pay than any of them will ever see in their entire lifetime?
The vision of bootstrap america ignores the tiny little problem that no man is an island, and rarely if ever does someone create a new and grand american dream for themselves without the help and aid of a huge swath of other people and a huge dose of LUCK.
edited 7th Dec '12 2:21:18 PM by Midgetsnowman
![]()
Well, for that to work you have to attack the incentive system for executive performance. In this case, these CEO's could be said to have been successful at generating profits for their stakeholders — that is, the investors who saddled the companies they "rescue" with debt under ruinous terms so they can collect interest and dividends, then sell it off when the house of cards starts to topple.
That's what Mitt whats-his-name did back at Bain Capital. Those executives are hugely successful at what they're being paid to do; why would they ever change?
This entirely. Each person is ultimately the architect of his/her own personal success or failure, but that is accomplished with the support of an entire society. Unless you cut down the trees to make the wood to build your store, mined the iron to make the nails and anchors and I-beams and whatnot, extruded the wires, blew the glass for the windows and the light bulbs, designed and built the computer systems from raw materials, paved the roads leading to your store, founded the monetary system on which your commerce is based, and bred the people who became your employees and customers, "you didn't build that."
edited 7th Dec '12 2:22:54 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I'm aware of that. I'm just pointing out the idea of building a company from nothing wasnt completely without merit. Its just an idea thats been corrupted into a horrific form by people who already succeeded and then proceeded to completely forget about bob the nice old man who was janitor at the first store. And completely forgot about how often luck played into their success.
Its one of the reasons I think shows like Undercover Bosses is so popular. because people enjoy seeing when the CEO of a company has a sudden, horrific realization of just what his modifications to store policy for "efficiency" actually do to his workforce.
edited 7th Dec '12 2:26:59 PM by Midgetsnowman
@ "Can we build it?" Better yet, where would your company be without police to keep you from being robbed? Where would your company be without firemen, to keep it from burning to the ground? Without international law, to keep your ideas from getting stolen?
I think Governments, worldwide, need to start reminding business how dependent they are on the stability governments provide.
edited 7th Dec '12 2:24:44 PM by DrTentacles
I still like the idea of geometrically increasing formulaic tax rates on capital gains such that you get less and less from the sort of transaction that made Mitt rich. And an FTT to keep people from sneaking the money out via other means.
edited 7th Dec '12 2:27:26 PM by RadicalTaoist
Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.@Dr Tentacles: Well, certain European countries are rapidly finding that out. Like Greece, for example.
@Radical Taoist: Simply removing the capital gains exemption would do wonders. Follow that up with an FTT and a doubling of the top marginal tax rates from 35% to 70% and we'd be in surplus city so fast you wouldn't have time to blink, plus there would be a lot of chastised billionaires.
edited 7th Dec '12 2:28:00 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

What do you mean? I'm talking about how far we should pull away from free markets. When do we stop?
edited 7th Dec '12 1:32:24 PM by Trivialis