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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#43051: Dec 7th 2012 at 10:39:53 AM

Because we're AMURIKA! Everything around the world is OUR responsibility, whether the world likes it or not! tongue

Inhopelessguy Since: Apr, 2011
#43052: Dec 7th 2012 at 10:46:05 AM

... But. Northern Ireland is not even... related to America. Northern Ireland is only 80 years old!

edited 7th Dec '12 10:46:35 AM by Inhopelessguy

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#43053: Dec 7th 2012 at 11:02:05 AM

[up]

Because Bill Clinton was instrumental in securing the final ceasefire in NI. Tony Blair invited him in to help out, and it worked. Hilary doesn't want her husband's legacy damaged.

It should all blow over, though.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#43054: Dec 7th 2012 at 11:20:45 AM

Re: Venker: Maybe I should set up a nice comfy dungeon for her; I'm sure she'd be happier there.

Though I kinda give her props for at least admitting (obliquely) that what she says doesn't apply to lesbians or asexuals. Most comments of this nature simply assume as a given that a woman wants a man by dint of having a vagina.

edited 7th Dec '12 11:27:31 AM by Ramidel

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#43055: Dec 7th 2012 at 11:21:42 AM

We've also got a reasonably strong Irish block, especially around Boston and New York.

edited 7th Dec '12 11:21:50 AM by DrTentacles

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43056: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:11:37 PM

Back to economics:

So basically, "the economy" is a symbiotic relationship wherein the people (American citizens) work for other people, or make stuff other people to buy, and people buy it in turn, or pay them, thus ensuring a happy cycle of people getting paid and having a generally awesome time.

A cut of all the transactions in this cycle go to "the government" the elected officials who do things that are deemed necessary by the people; maintain armies to make sure we all don't get blown up, various law and legal enforcement agencies, build bridges and roads, etc. Basically ensuring nothing ruins the happy cycle of paid people above.

Where the United States is concerned, the government gets money from it's citizens, and it's a pretty good cut, good enough that the government actually gives some it back every year (tax returns). However, someone noticed that due to the uniquely good situation in this country, some citizens have significantly more to spend than others. These are guys named Koch, Trump, most of Hollywood, etc.

Apparently, one of the rich citizens realized the government would be very interested in their rather fatter wallets. The habit of the rich being to get more rich, they approached the government before it approached them.

Rich Person: Hey Government. Say, thanks for having a country with such excellent employees, land, resources, etc, and allowing us to get..well, rich.

Government: No prob. About that, we want to collect our cut so we can continue making this US of Awesome awesome.

Rich Person: We have another idea. (Government listens) We don't really want to pay you a cut.

Government: Um, but that's not fa....

Rich Person: Hang on, you'll get your money. But what we want to do, is "loan" you the money (Treasury Bearer Bond). You'll pay us back with interest.

Government: But...why can't you just pay taxes like everyone else? The fair way? The honest way?

Rich Person: (pulls out big bag of cash) Why quibble over 'fair' when this can be yours. And technically, since you can take your time paying me back, it's kinda the same as you getting your cut.

Government: (thinking; uncertain) But...that sounds like...us paying you, when we provide a service you should be thanking us for....

Rich Person: (adds a second bag) Here you go. And like we said, you don't have to pay it back right away. Heck, you could take 30 years to pay it off if you'd like. Really...just give us the interest every year, and we can more or less call it even.

Government: (thinking more; more uncertain) Well, that's a lot of money. And we could use it to do so many good things. We could help so many people. And I'm sure we'll have the money from our citizens to pay this back.

Rich Person: (pulls a third second bag of money) Exactly. See, we want to help the country, too. And that's why I'm giving you this bag.

Government: I can't pay all this back.

Rich Person: No, no. This third bag is just for you. It's a gift. You don't have to pay it back. I want you to have this so you can campaign and get elected so you can keep doing good for the country.

Government: Gee, thanks Rich Person. You're so patriotic.

So the government has two revenue streams. Taxes from it's "ordinary" citizens. And these "loans" from it's richer citizens. And even with such a....strange...set up, America is so inherently awesome, this system actually...works.

Until, occasionally, something goes wrong. An established way of making money bottoms out (steel industry), or another economy bumps ours (Asia markets), or someone gets greedy (insider trading). This results in a bunch of citizens out of work. The happy cycle of paid people is broken. This affects the government getting it's cut, which it needs to fix the situation, and return the country to the happy cycle.

The Government notices that due to the inherent awesomeness of the country, some citizens have the funds necessary to get the happy cycle spinning again....

The Government: Hey rich person. So things are little off right now. And we figured you'd be willing to kick in some extra to get things back to awesome like they were. So about our cut we never collected...

Rich Person: Actually, we gave it you, you have our loan.

Government: Um, you've never actually paid your share for what we do. Now we need it.

Rich Person: Well you can't just ignore our loan either.

Government: (aggravated) Okay (through gritted teeth) do you think you can at least lower the interest on these 'loans' so we can funnel more money to fixing the happy cycle?

Rich Person: No. You need to control your spending better.

Government: (exasperated) How? Just stop building hospitals? Ignore schooling our children? Let people starve?

(Rich Person looks at Government saying nothing. Government gasps in horror)

Government: We can't FUCKING DO THAT! Your own children would suffer!

Rich Person: (coldly smiling) My children wouldn't.

Government: Okay, not yours. What about everyone else's??!

Rich Person: What about them? They're the reason you don't have money.

Government: What?! We don't have money because we're trying to combat foes who we have to chase in the shadows, we're trying to keep our warming planet still habitable, we're trying to feed growing numbers of people.

Rich Person: All noble. You're also giving food to people who buy nice red leather handbags. You're educating kids who play Grand Theft Auto. You're paying for public parks where kids get high.

Government: (confused, doubtful) But...but...no...we...we don't do....Wait...we help people. It's our job.

Rich Person: Poor guy. Those other guys (Democrats, liberals, leftists) have you so confused. But you stick with me, we'll help you. Just cut all that extra shit, and you'll have money. You'll even be able to increase our dividend.

Government: Wait?! I thought this was about helping us and all America.

Rich Person: (pulls out big bag of money) But it is....helping us IS helping all of us......

And so the cycle continues. Is this the situation in a nutshell??

edited 7th Dec '12 12:15:03 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43057: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:16:06 PM

Pared down to basics, you have definitely hit on the entitlement issues of the rich that are one of the primary sources of our current problems, yes. smile

In actuality, debt is a powerful tool of economics because it acts as a multiplier. The same money can be made to do more work by circulating it more rapidly. Money in savings doesn't contribute nearly as much to economic activity.

Debt is not technically revenue. It's a net expenditure because of interest payments. If you had a credit account with a zero interest rate and an unlimited balance, you could withdraw as much cash as you want with no consequences, but your net wealth has not changed from this exercise. The question is: what do you then use the money for? Does it go into activities that generate a profit or a loss? If the former, then your net worth has increased by taking on that debt. If the latter, then it's been decreased.

The primary risk of excessive debt is that it may trigger an inflationary spiral, but that's impossible in a demand crisis like we're in now.

edited 7th Dec '12 1:36:55 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43058: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:41:52 PM

You have hit on the basic entitlement of the rich scenario. This combined with the fact that they're in charge of the supply in many cases causes them to think that they drive the whole economy and they get upset when we don't buy their stuff.

Republican economic policy focuses only on Supply at expense of Demand and refuses to help make more Demand. They seem to think that the ultra-rich can just be supply and demand all on their own and cut everyone else out.

They're the reason we have a demand shortage at the moment in the first place, but they think they can fix it by taking away from the demand and giving back to the supply. Which just makes things worse in a demand shortage. This only works in a supply shortage. But they refuse to deal with anything other than supply shortages because that would mean adapting your tactics to fit the situation and taking money from the really wealthy.

And that's why conservative economic theory doesn't work.

edited 7th Dec '12 12:43:07 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43059: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:46:32 PM

The answer of the rich to any problem is, "Give us more money." That's why we can't trust them to make economic policy. In point of fact, rich people aren't the ones hurting in the current situation.

In fairness, poor people also want more money, but it's so they can feed their families and afford doctor's visits, not so they can buy a second yacht.

edited 7th Dec '12 12:47:08 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#43060: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:49:42 PM

We have had poster who think that Demand doesn't exist, often even in the most absurd situations. Some poster who didn't last long literally thought that if you built a restaurant, people would come enough to keep it afloat, even when ther was a saturation of restaurants in the vicinity.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43061: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:51:56 PM

@Shima and Fighteer - You guys are basically saying that the Republican/Tea Party model of economics is a single-minded devotion to compounding more wealth. The complete opposite of poor ghetto people who spend for no reason at all; these people compound a ton of money; sometimes violating the very laws of basic arithmetic to do it; and then...they don't even spend it.

They are literally a mindlessly malevolent all-consuming black hole wherein money doesn't just go in and never come back out; but it starts to devour what little positive gain is made.

Is this what you're saying?

It was an honor
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43062: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:55:50 PM

An application of an economic model has two criteria:

  • What are the goals?
  • Does the model actually meet those goals?

It seems like if the goal is general prosperity for everyone, simply increasing supply doesn't work when that's not the problem. But I'm not sure if their model is workable if you're trying to do something else.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43063: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:56:33 PM

They're not necessarily malevolent. Some of them are just greedy and thoughtless. They think that if they can claw their way to the top of that pile, all that money could be theirs. They don't realise that there's more money for everyone if they wouldn't hoard it like dragons and they don't care about the people at the bottom because they just call them all lazy.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43064: Dec 7th 2012 at 12:58:34 PM

These are the people I believed in....?

It was an honor
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#43065: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:00:55 PM

[up]If it's any consolation, there are still Progressive Conservatives around, Maxima.

The Hoarding Dragons have been pushing them out (and, often forcing them to turn Blue), but they're still there. Neoliberals are not the sum of Conservative economic thought. smile

edited 7th Dec '12 1:02:23 PM by Euodiachloris

LooseCannon The Groose Is Loose from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jun, 2012
The Groose Is Loose
#43066: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:00:58 PM

Don't forget the belief in the trickle-down effect.

Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#43067: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:01:26 PM

Yep. The truth hurts sometimes. The Republican party has gone off the far right crazy rails.

Can I ask you how you thought their policies worked?

edited 7th Dec '12 1:06:16 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43068: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:17:22 PM

You can't blame all of them, Starship. For many people, acquiring lots of money triggers a form of narcissism, where their life priorities shift from caring about other people's welfare to comparing themselves with their peers. When your self-image depends on having other people tell you how cool you are, and how cool you are is directly proportional to your net worth, it is very easy to lose sight of how life is for people who don't have anything.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43069: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:22:43 PM

Can I ask you how you thought their policies worked?

Honestly, I truly thought it was like the "You did build it" ads. The American Dream.

It was an honor
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#43070: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:24:06 PM

Question is, how far to we have to intervene before that dream itself no longer applies?

LMage Since: May, 2011
#43071: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:24:48 PM

[up][up]

It's easy and convincing for success stories to speaking about the American Dreams, but those in power will always have an interest in maintain the status quo. Power corrupts, money is a form of power, etc.

edited 7th Dec '12 1:24:55 PM by LMage

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#43072: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:25:17 PM

@Starship: But if you look at their actual policies, not their rhetoric, they are about locking as many people out of the American Dream as possible thanks to cutting funding for education, medical care, income support, etc. Meanwhile their kids are getting a free ride thanks to low inheritance taxes.

edited 7th Dec '12 1:25:30 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#43073: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:28:43 PM

[up][up][up]That's a none-topic: even Adam Smith knew darned well that unrestricted free-markets weren't a good thing. Heck: he even said as much. Here: enjoy.

edited 7th Dec '12 1:29:13 PM by Euodiachloris

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#43074: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:30:26 PM

Starship, I told you dawg. I told you about stairs how you're really a no good dirty commie-socialist at heart. All it took was a simple lesson in macroeconomics.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#43075: Dec 7th 2012 at 1:31:42 PM

Until 48 hours I thought one group wanted to give all people a chance to reach the sky. Now, it seems, they were reaching the sky by stepping on the heads of others.

I don't even know what to say right now.

[up] All it took was a simple lesson in macroeconomics to kick over my mental sand castles.

edited 7th Dec '12 1:33:00 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

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