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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#42951: Dec 6th 2012 at 3:15:05 PM

Besides, we're on a set payment plan for paying back foreign debt, and we couldn't pay it all off at once anyways.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#42952: Dec 6th 2012 at 3:28:27 PM

@Triv: actually. No. Banks can "create" currency via creative accounting.

It works about as so.

Suppose I put 500 dollars in the bank.

The bank now has 500 dollars they technically owe me. But in the meantime they can lend it out to someone else. Suppose thst person banks 450 of this loan in their bank. And then that bank loans 400 out to a third person.

You now have 1350 dollars in circulation.

(Granted, they have to keep a certain amount of their overall money in the vault as a reserve..but past that.,.its free game for infinitely loaning the same money out)

edited 6th Dec '12 3:30:05 PM by Midgetsnowman

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#42953: Dec 6th 2012 at 3:55:38 PM

A basic understanding of game theory and induction problems, taught in high school civics, would make macroeconomics easy to grasp.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#42954: Dec 6th 2012 at 3:59:15 PM

[up][up]That's money flow, though, not actual increase in money supply.

But I think I see something now. Economic policymaking is an opportunity-based decision to solve targeted problems. Since the government is empowered to tax and spend, you do that appropriately based on the situation.

I don't see why people here say cutting social programs would increase debt, though. Sure it would affect the economy, but in terms of debt, there would be surplus if there's a tax mandate that pays for all the spending.

So I'm wondering, is a debt increase inevitable, or are we instead going to have to raise taxes next year?

edited 6th Dec '12 3:59:22 PM by Trivialis

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#42955: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:10:55 PM

[up][up]Just being taught Rule #1 of the social sciences would be good: "people in a group act most unlike individuals... the bigger the group, the more opposite they get". tongue

edited 6th Dec '12 4:23:44 PM by Euodiachloris

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#42956: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:19:56 PM

When you cut taxes, you destroy the economy. When you raise taxes, you enhance the economy.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
MidnightRambler Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan! from Germania Inferior Since: Mar, 2011
Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan!
#42957: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:22:10 PM

[up] Even I know it's more complicated than that. Otherwise you could just pump up all tax rates to 98% and the economy would thrive like never before. [lol]

edited 6th Dec '12 4:22:20 PM by MidnightRambler

Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#42958: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:23:53 PM

Higher taxes due impinge economic growth, it just so happens that higher government spending compensates for economic growth, and in a liquidity trap, the latter effect is stronger than the former effect.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42959: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:33:16 PM

There's an equilibrium point for taxes. It just happens to be higher than what we currently have so cutting it more is going to get us farther off balance. What our biggest issue is not enough money to the lowest classes. That means that the demand bit of supply and demand breaks down.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SecretLink Since: Jul, 2010
#42960: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:41:48 PM

[up] At the risk of sounding like an evil republican, wouldn't it also be a good idea to make it easier to shell out money than horde money? As I understand it, The really rich are encourage by various laws,regulations and so forth to just keep their money in the bank, while the rest of us are kinda screwed if taxes are raised on merely earned income.

edited 6th Dec '12 4:43:07 PM by SecretLink

“ I am not insane… What I am saying is most true and reasonable”
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42961: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:48:43 PM

[up] It's not laws that encourage the rich to hoard. It's a combination of Greed and well, that's just how microeconmics work. The only proven way to stop it is to tax them more heavily. There's no other legislative way to make it work.

Do you have a better way to part the rich with their money? Because they certainly don't want to part with it.

edited 6th Dec '12 5:33:52 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#42962: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:49:55 PM

On the whole debt holder thing: Can anyone please provide a link to a good breakdown of who holds how much of the debt?

[down]Awesome, thank you very much. grin

edited 6th Dec '12 4:54:51 PM by Lascoden

boop
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42963: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:52:10 PM

Here's an infographic.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
OhnoaBear I'm back, baby. from Exiting, pursued by a... Since: Jan, 2011
I'm back, baby.
#42964: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:54:52 PM

The second graph is kind of confusing. Am I reading it right in saying that China and Japan both hold the majority of American Governmental Dept in foreign hands?

"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42965: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:58:05 PM

Yes. China and Japan are the current two largest foreign holders of US debt. But that makes up a very small percentage of the whole US debt. China itself only holds about 7% of US debt. The biggest person the US government owes is the US government.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#42966: Dec 6th 2012 at 4:59:01 PM

Or rather, people living in US.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42967: Dec 6th 2012 at 5:00:26 PM

No. I mean specifically the US government. Specifically the treasury, and federal reserve.

edited 6th Dec '12 5:02:57 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#42968: Dec 6th 2012 at 5:02:10 PM

Now I have this mental image of the Treasury Department walking into other departments' offices, breaking stuff, acting threatening, and being all "wow, nice project you've got going here, shame if something would happen to it".

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42969: Dec 6th 2012 at 5:03:46 PM

Yep, the US government owes itself more money than it owes China.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#42970: Dec 6th 2012 at 5:04:31 PM

By my count the US government owes itself (not the US people, just the government itself) more than it does all foreign holders combined.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42971: Dec 6th 2012 at 5:06:32 PM

Yep. That it does. It makes this whole debt thing seem far sillier.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42972: Dec 6th 2012 at 5:07:16 PM

Jim De Mint resigns, will chair Heritage Foundation

De Mint's gone? That's rather unexpected.

The man was probably the most conservative person in the Senate.

I mean, this is Romney. The man who changes his mind on the fly.

I never really felt like I knew who the real Mitt Romney was. I doubt I ever will.

edited 6th Dec '12 5:13:32 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#42974: Dec 6th 2012 at 5:33:20 PM

Both of those make sense. What with the Cold War having been done for over twenty years, and Russia's less than pleasant track record with human rights since then.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#42975: Dec 6th 2012 at 6:50:00 PM

So apparently the new Conservative plan is to vote out Boehner from the speakership for not being conservative enough via withholding just enough republican votes to confirm him as speaker.

http://www.politicususa.com/fireboehner-hashtag-trends-war-escalates-gop.html

edited 6th Dec '12 6:51:14 PM by Midgetsnowman


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