TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#42376: Dec 2nd 2012 at 5:50:38 PM

I thought we classified everyone killed in drone strikes as enemy combatants to avoid that problem!

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#42377: Dec 2nd 2012 at 5:55:11 PM

I'll repeat: 178 children were killed by our drones.

Unless, you know, you consider children barely in their pre-teens as "enemy combatants".

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#42378: Dec 2nd 2012 at 5:56:33 PM

Tomu was very obviously being sarcastic there, Serocco.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#42379: Dec 2nd 2012 at 5:57:34 PM

As was I about the second sentence.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#42380: Dec 2nd 2012 at 5:59:09 PM

Yeah I'm really starting to stand in opposition to the drone strikes now. It's just too invasive. A military strike should be done by professionals that got the permission of the state, instead of harassing that land.

edited 2nd Dec '12 6:00:13 PM by Trivialis

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#42381: Dec 2nd 2012 at 5:59:16 PM

Loss of life is loss of life. Saying "Think of the children!" is just an emotional appeal, and that kind of thing is inherently repellent to me.

I'm not a fan of the casualties that drone strikes cause whether they're children or not.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#42382: Dec 2nd 2012 at 6:06:16 PM

On the issue of drones: "I want to make sure that people understand actually drones have not caused a huge number of civilian casualties…. For the most part, they have been very precise, precision strikes against al- Qaeda and their affiliates. And we are very careful in terms of how it's been applied."

President Obama, January 2012. Note that, as commander-in-chief, Obama personally authorizes every single drone strike.

edited 2nd Dec '12 6:08:38 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#42383: Dec 2nd 2012 at 6:08:32 PM

Drone strikes are imperialistic. Not in the conventional sense of taking over and exploiting a weaker country for one's own gain, but in the sense that they reveal a particularly poisonous attitude. Obama is obviously aware of the collateral damage these attacks do (as well as the huge diplomatic cost) but seems to consider the deaths of "their" women and children to be an acceptable loss, the violation of "their" national sovereignty to be acceptable behaviour, so long as it protects "our" interests and citizenry. Not even acknowledging the 178 innocent people our drones have killed is the height of arrogance, and it betrays a deep contempt for the people we are supposedly "liberating". Its like the "White Man's Burden" - "Oh well, we have to do this in order to free you from centuries of intolerance and oppression, and to stop your silly little confederates from threatening us. We don't expect you to understand, but, hey, you're just a silly little tribesman!"

edited 2nd Dec '12 6:10:07 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#42384: Dec 2nd 2012 at 6:23:04 PM

Well, how many people have drones INTENTIONALLY killed?

What's our false positive ratio like? Five false positives for every proper killshot? That's a huge amount and terrible.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42385: Dec 2nd 2012 at 6:24:49 PM

How are drone strikes any different than bombings, cruise missiles, shelling from artillery, infantry shooting people with assault rifles, or any other method of killing people that we use and, occasionally, use on the wrong people?

If you're just calling out collateral damage, fine. It's terrible and no one's denying that. But if you're calling out drones specifically, then you need a reason why drones are worse than any other given method of causing death and destruction.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#42386: Dec 2nd 2012 at 6:27:14 PM

If you believe that wars are justified, there's a good reason. It's closer to terrorism than a fairly declared war.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#42387: Dec 2nd 2012 at 6:51:02 PM

CIA drone strikes in Pakistan from 2004 through 2012: 351 total strikes, 299 of which were under Obama.

Total reported killed between 2,586 and 3,379, 176 of which were children. Between 472 and 885 civilians were reported killed.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42388: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:07:04 PM

So, do you have the statistics for other methods of delivering ordinance on-target, for comparison? Because I completely and utterly fail to understand why people care more about drone strikes than they care about missile strikes, or air strikes, or artillery strikes, or anything other kind of strike that doesn't involve drones.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#42389: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:09:23 PM

It might be because it's the war equivalent of new media are evil. I have also known at least one person that views it as dishonorable but he's...odd.

#42390: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:16:00 PM

How about some actual data?

Looking at that, we have an overall record of 1 in 5 deaths being civilians. That's a little skewed by the Chenagai airstrike which killed more civilians than everything else under Bush combined. Since 2007 it has been a pretty steady 10% civilian casualty rate.

That's not a very good record, but it is significantly better than any past war we've fought. The main problem here isn't the accuracy of our strikes but the nebulous nature of what is a valid target.

So, do you have the statistics for other methods of delivering ordinance on-target, for comparison? Because I completely and utterly fail to understand why people care more about drone strikes than they care about missile strikes, or air strikes, or artillery strikes, or anything other kind of strike that doesn't involve drones.

See here. Drones are quite a bit better than everything else that has been tried. The problem isn't that they are more likely to hurt civilians than other weapons: they are less likely. The problem is that the use of other weapons is subject to checks and balances, while drone strikes are more-or-less subject to the president's whim.

edited 2nd Dec '12 7:19:17 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#42391: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:17:01 PM

Sounds about right.

The whole "War on Terror" idea is bork to begin with.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#42392: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:17:02 PM

[up][up][up][up] The thing about drone strikes is how the US government, including Obama himself, has continually denied any collateral damage regarding drone strikes.

Another issue is how we define "civilians" as "anyone without a weapon". Signature strikes are when we attack people we don't even know - only that they seem to be carrying weapons.

edited 2nd Dec '12 7:22:23 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#42393: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:32:26 PM

The fundamental problem here is that we have leaders reckless enough to kill children in alarming numbers. Our record with drones, while sub-par, is still comparatively better than other weapons, as Grizzly mentioned.

I don't think drones added anything new in terms of America eschewing it's accountability for the collateral damage it causes. We've been enforcing economic sanctions on Iran for years, which has caused many of their children to starve to death. Unlike drone casualties, this is not something that is simply ignored, it is actively celebrated. It is cheered on as some moral victory for us that we're killing people, just not with bullets and explosives. The problem, quite clearly, is us as a country, not the methods we use.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#42394: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:32:35 PM

The "the collateral damage is relatively small" has to be compared to boots on the ground. Do you think an armed invasion would have fewer civilian casualties?

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42395: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:43:31 PM

The problem is that the use of other weapons is subject to checks and balances, while drone strikes are more-or-less subject to the president's whim.
I'm not sure how you mean that. You mean political checks and balances, as controls on executive power? The President is the Commander in Chief of the US military — ordering military action in defense of US interests is well within his powers, and I don't see how drones are any different than air or missile strikes in that regard. If you want to talk about the erosion of congressional power to declare war, then I'll gladly have that conversation, but I don't see what it has to do with drones specifically.

The thing about drone strikes is how the US government, including Obama himself, has continually denied any collateral damage regarding drone strikes.
Uh, gonna need some sources on that. If they've said that there is less collateral damage caused by drone strikes than by other methods of attack, that's one thing. But I find it difficult to believe that they've said that drone strikes have never caused any collateral damage, because that's an incredibly stupid thing to say.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#42396: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:50:20 PM

[up]"With the unprecedented ability of remotely piloted aircraft to precisely target a military objective while minimizing collateral damage, one could argue that never before has there been a weapon that allows us to distinguish more effectively between an al-Qa'ida terrorist and innocent civilians." - Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism John O. Brennan, April 2012. Brennan claims we know the civilians from terrorists, yet we're killing civilians anyway. That's number one.

"[T]here is still a very firm emphasis on being surgical and targeting only those who have a direct interest in attacking the United States." - Senior Obama administration official, April 2012. The official claims we're "only" targeting those who will attack the United States. I guess those 178 children really wanted to attack us.

"[A] hallmark of our counter-terrorism efforts has been our ability to be exceptionally precise, exceptionally surgical and exceptionally targeted." - White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, January 2012. Carney's saying that the drone strikes are "precise", effectively denying that we're causing collateral damage at all.

edited 2nd Dec '12 7:55:59 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#42397: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:54:18 PM

Exceptionally would be exception ala be substantially more precise than "usual" aka to other tactics.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#42398: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:56:53 PM

I guess the problem is that drone strikes seem to be violating some accepted norms of diplomacy.

If we used a guerrilla force or missile strikes, for example, to repeatedly harass people in Pakistan, that would be just as bad. The difference is that that's not likely to happen; we would probably get cooperation from the Pakistani government and we would be more careful not to focus on lethality. The mindset of people thinking that it's ok to bypass such steps with drone strikes seems to be the core of the complaints.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42399: Dec 2nd 2012 at 7:57:09 PM

[up][up][up]Which of those is supposed to say "drones never cause collateral damage, ever"? Because the message I get from them is "drones cause less collateral damage than other options available" — which, according to Grizzly's link, is true. So I'm not really sure what you're faulting them for.

[up]That is an entirely legitimate complaint — that our use of drones in other nations' territory without their permission is causing diplomatic problems. I generally feel that if a nation like Afghanistan or Pakistan is unwilling or unable to effectively deal with threats to the United States within their borders, then we're justified in dealing with those threats ourselves — but I also admit that the opposing position is legitimate, unlike the general "zomg drones are bad!" sentiment that I see a lot of.

edited 2nd Dec '12 8:01:18 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#42400: Dec 2nd 2012 at 8:05:37 PM

[up]Did you not read the part where I said "Carney's saying that the drone strikes are "precise", effectively denying that we're causing collateral damage at all. "

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

Total posts: 417,856
Top