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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#42176: Nov 28th 2012 at 12:30:43 PM

In fact, Hostess is an example of the TRIUMPH of supply and demand style capitalism. Plain and simple, Hostess was using noncompetitive equipment, offering noncompetitive pay to its workers and selling noncompetitive products. Increasingly fewer people were benefiting from its existence as time went on, and nothing about its management even attempted to change that.

I wanted to take a break from being Forum A-hole #1 to say this was spot-on correct. Carry on.

It was an honor
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#42177: Nov 28th 2012 at 12:37:47 PM

Ok, let me try and decipher what apparently constitutes important news for a moment.

BP Oil spill happens: Eh, no big deal. Brit Hume says the ocean can handle it.

Obama orders more drone strikes: Oh hey, this might be a good time to discuss our foreign poli- NEVERMIND THAT, LOOK AT THAT ASSHOLE GOING GOLFING LIKE HE'S TIGER WOODS OR SOME SHIT!

Hostess goes under: MY TWINKIES ARE GONE! FUCK YOU, UNIONS!

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#42178: Nov 28th 2012 at 12:48:48 PM

There's more BP oil spill-related news?

This is all I could find so far, which absolutely delights me by the EPA having something resembling testiculars for a change.

I don't see anything on Hume that isn't dated 2010, though.

edited 28th Nov '12 12:49:29 PM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#42179: Nov 28th 2012 at 12:50:19 PM

We're comparing the levels of conservative outrage on an historical basis.

edited 28th Nov '12 12:50:44 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#42180: Nov 28th 2012 at 12:51:37 PM

What Fighteer said. It was just a random example.

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#42181: Nov 28th 2012 at 3:29:44 PM

That's not inconsistent actually when you realize that drone strikes and the BP oil spill are happening to people outside the United States while the death of Twinkies affects people inside the United States. This is of course despite the fact that drone strikes and oil spills should be much more important compared to the state of Twinkies.

edited 28th Nov '12 3:30:09 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42182: Nov 28th 2012 at 3:34:00 PM

The BP oil spill effected millions of US citizens who live or make their livelihood in or around the gulf of Mexico and cost the US economy billions of dollars in tourism alone.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
#42183: Nov 28th 2012 at 3:35:57 PM

There's also the fact that the media made a much bigger deal of the BP oil spill than they have of twinkies.

<><
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#42184: Nov 28th 2012 at 3:41:29 PM

I don't get how you could think the BP oil spill doesn't affect the US when it happened in the fucking GULF OF MEXICO which our southern coastline runs along. And closer to us than actual Mexico, considering where the animal rescue and shit happened.

And yeah, the Hostess company thing has barely gotten a headline, whereas the oil spill was ongoing for several months and got wide coverage all over the country.

So yeah, Hilarity's comparison on that bit is somewhat inaccurate, considering the recency of the Hostess vs. the BP oil spill, and GG I don't get why you don't think that it didn't happen in US territory and didn't affect our local ecosystem and fishing industries. (Hell, I think they're still recovering there, with lobsters still popping up sick from that crap.)

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#42185: Nov 28th 2012 at 3:42:50 PM

...Now that I think of it, Grizzly is right. There was more news on the BP Oil Spill than there was on Twinkies, mostly for the reasons shima had stated, but the point does remain... American news generally only cares about events that affect Americans.

It's been such a long time since the oil spill that I kind of forgot how much coverage it got. I usually don't care all that much to watch news because it usually ends up being so depressing. Sorry about that.

edited 28th Nov '12 3:48:19 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42186: Nov 28th 2012 at 5:04:45 PM

The Union undoubtedly provided the killing blow to Hostess, but at that point Hostess was already on life support and probably wouldn't have made it to 2013.

You could argue that if the workers hadn't striked, Hostess could have had enough time to find a buyer thus saving themselves, but Hostess had been looking for buyers for quite some time so its very unlikely that one would have just miraculously showed up just as they were on death's door.

[up]

There was tons of news coverage over the BP oil spill (at least for the first two-three weeks of it). For a short time Tony Hayward replaced Osama Bin Laden as the most hated man in America.

edited 28th Nov '12 6:58:37 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42187: Nov 28th 2012 at 5:07:39 PM

It was a death blow caused by them refusing to take yet another cut. There's only so far you can push your workers especially while giving bonuses to the top brass at the same time.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#42188: Nov 28th 2012 at 5:10:01 PM

There was undoubtedly much more coverage of the oil spill. I'd be outraged at the piss-poor state of journalism if there wasn't. I just meant that Fox was harsher on unions than they were BP. In fairness, though, I think it was mostly Hume playing the part of an outright BP apologist rather than all of the Fox commentators, but I could be mistaken. It's been a while and my memory is fuzzy.

Important wasn't really the right word, actually. It was more about their reactions than anything else.

edited 28th Nov '12 5:18:55 PM by HilarityEnsues

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42189: Nov 28th 2012 at 5:45:18 PM

Those executives didn't initiate the problems. To me, that sounds like there were already major problems and the board was panicking and desperately trying to find a solution.

I think the Hostess board of executives, by the time of the strike, had largely given up on finding a solution (I doubt there was a solution short of buying bought by another company that could have fixed there problems).

I think the Teamsters also realized the company was screwed which is why they (unlike Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers' International Union) agreed to the cuts instead of striking. The workers would be unemployed eventually so the pay cuts didn't matter, it was better to be employed with a reduced pay than unemployed. Plus by delaying the inevitable closure, the workers would have had more time to search for new jobs and prepare resumes while still receiving paychecks.

Knowing that the end was nigh, most of the higher ups gave themselves pay increases to soften there upcoming unemployment. CEO Brian Driscoll giving himself a pay raise before leaving in March 2012 was proof of that (and to add to the insult he got up to $2 million in compensation.)

Although in fairness its not its not like the company didn't try anything to save itself. It tried a limited-edition return of original banana-cream Twinkies and published The Twinkies Cookbook. And CEO Gregory F. Rayburn (who had replaced Driscoll) cut the salaries of the four top Hostess executives to $1 (the salaries were to be restored by 2013).

But it was neither corporate greed or rebellious workers that ultimately led to the demise of Hostess. It was the simple fact that Hostess products weren't selling. Its 2011 sales ($2.5 billion) were down about 11% from 2008 and down 28% from 2004. Throw in The Great Recession, high labor costs, and the rising prices of corn, sugar, and flour; and Hostess' downfall was inevitable.

Congressman Darrell Issa floats tentative internet legislation on Reddit

Obama Repeats Call to Extend Tax Cuts for Middle Class

President Obama, Mitt Romney to have White House lunch together

I'm sure that meeting won't be awkward.

edited 28th Nov '12 7:25:24 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#42190: Nov 28th 2012 at 6:08:20 PM

How are other snack food companies doing sales wise? Are they doing as poorly as Hostess?

boop
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42191: Nov 28th 2012 at 6:20:40 PM

General Mills is up but they've also made better general business decisions.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#42192: Nov 28th 2012 at 6:33:10 PM

The demise of Hostess was a failure of business planning, not of labor relations.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42193: Nov 28th 2012 at 6:41:59 PM

[up]

Well the immediate demise was due to (very poor) labor relations, but the demise was made inevitable due to bad business planning.

Still regardless of the bad business decisions Hostess made (and rest assured they made some bad decisions), there is no getting around the fact that the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers' International Union's decision to strike was essentially a show of Honor Before Reason

edited 28th Nov '12 7:07:22 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#42194: Nov 28th 2012 at 8:06:21 PM

Exactly how far do you think they should have cooperated before striking, then?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#42195: Nov 28th 2012 at 9:08:45 PM

Let's be frank, Deviant Braeburn. Even with the 25% cut in pay that Hostess was demanding, the company still might not have made it. Better to go out with your dignity intact than to ride a sinking ship to the bottom.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#42196: Nov 28th 2012 at 9:16:34 PM

[up]

Not to mention give companies even more incentive to push unions into worse and worse deals via precedent,

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#42197: Nov 28th 2012 at 9:51:32 PM

@Deviant: No, a meeting between Obama and Romney won't be awkward. This is politics, and Romney is above all else a politician. He can admit it when he's gotten his ass hammered. Besides, he's still angling for a cabinet post. Hell, Obama can probably find somewhere to shuffle him off to if he just wants to humiliate the Republican Party.

Unfortunately, the Republican Party's core is immune to humiliation, for just the reason that Grizzly elucidated a while back; they don't care whether anyone agrees with them, because they're acting in accordance with what they perceive to be a moral duty.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42198: Nov 28th 2012 at 9:55:25 PM

[up][up][up]

Dignity doesn't put food on a table. And there are tons of people who are willing to work for even less than that.

And I know that Hostess would still have gone belly up. I noted that several times in my previous comments.

[up][up][up][up]

They should have tried to make a deal with Hostess like the Teamsters did. That would have given the employees more time to search for new jobs while still having an income source.

edited 28th Nov '12 10:10:15 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42199: Nov 28th 2012 at 10:28:29 PM

Republican David Rouzer concedes House bid after recount in North Carolina race

THE 2012 HOUSE ELECTIONS ARE FINALLY OVER!

And it only took 22 days!

edited 28th Nov '12 10:35:31 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#42200: Nov 28th 2012 at 10:49:52 PM

What's the procedure if the loser never actually concedes? Do they just ignore them and move on?

boop

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