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deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#42126: Nov 27th 2012 at 7:34:28 PM

[up][up][up][up] One can allow multiple languages to spread, while avoiding making it create poverty... I mean, Jews have Hebrew and Yiddish and stuff like that, and, in Finland, both Finnish and Swedish are prevalent.

The commonality in these, though, is that there's at least one language that's shared by everyone, but people have other languages in addition that they use.

[up][up][up] I'd rather people be able to experience diverse cultures so that xenophobia could be less prevalent.

Also, one does not have to be culturally American to be patriotic. Plus, patriotism isn't unique to the US, not is nationalism absent. In fact, that argument sounds way too much like American Exceptionalism, which is, to be frank, bullshit.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42127: Nov 27th 2012 at 7:43:45 PM

[up]

To borrow a line someone said in another thread

Racism becomes more explicit when the minority is more uniform and has more numbers. (They are a greater threat to the group in power...

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#42128: Nov 27th 2012 at 7:48:36 PM

And xenophobia is more prevalent when everyone is the same. Xenophobia is more dangerous than racism. Racism leads to hate and violence against a group. Xenophobia leads to hate against everyone else and war. Plus, with proper education, racism can be fought, while xenophobia is fought best by diversity.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#42129: Nov 27th 2012 at 7:49:43 PM

Deviant, the fear of racism is not a good reason not to allow dual citizenship. Also, it sounds kind of assbackwards to make a person reapply for citizenship of a country they're already a citizen of.

There's nothing that's ever told me that you can't love two countries and be patriotic to both. Just saying.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#42130: Nov 27th 2012 at 7:50:34 PM

@Braeburn: your scenario doesnt fucking exist. When the irish came here? everyione expressed concerns they wouldnt assimilate like previous immigrants. same with germans. same with asians. why would mexicans be ANY different after a few generations?

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#42131: Nov 27th 2012 at 7:52:35 PM

[up] I think he isn't arguing against the promoting immigration, but against the promoting cultural diversity and making dual citizenship easier.

edited 27th Nov '12 7:53:00 PM by deathpigeon

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#42132: Nov 27th 2012 at 7:55:22 PM

[up]

which is stupid. The initial generation /never/ assimilates. That takes multiple generations.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#42133: Nov 27th 2012 at 8:04:43 PM

Midget speaks the truth. The culture of America is never really the immigrant's culture because it's not the one they grew up in, so they are unlikely as adults to fully assimilate all cultural behaviors and values. (Also, given the diversity even among the same social class the culture tends to vary greatly. So what "American culture" you're talking about can be very different depending on who you're talking to.) It takes growing up here to really "assimilate". Same applies to immigrants to any other country.

edited 27th Nov '12 8:05:18 PM by AceofSpades

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42134: Nov 27th 2012 at 8:40:50 PM

your scenario doesnt fucking exist. When the irish came here? everyione expressed concerns they wouldnt assimilate like previous immigrants. same with germans. same with asians. why would mexicans be ANY different after a few generations?

Here's the thing, its not just Mexican immigrants it's Latino immigrants in general. The problem is that this wave of Latino immigrants is more culturally compatible than the European and Asian immigrant waves that came before them, therefore assimilation is harder.

While there are certainly differences between Mexicans, Cubans, and Colombians; I think its obvious that they have more culturally and linguistically in common then the Irish, Poles, and Italians did, sames goes for the Chinese, Filipinos, and Japanese.

On top of that there is the fact that the birthrate among citizens born here is flat-lining while the birthrate among immigrants is booming. This is unlike the immigrant waves of 1800-1900s where the birth rate of national and foreign born citizens was more or less equal (at the very least both showed a healthy sigh of growth).

edited 27th Nov '12 9:12:40 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#42135: Nov 27th 2012 at 8:49:00 PM

You're reaching. There is no reason to believe that this wave of immigrants will be any more harmful to American society than any other. It's just the automatic kneejerk reaction of the established groups, just like every other time in history in every culture.

edited 27th Nov '12 8:50:01 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#42136: Nov 27th 2012 at 8:52:12 PM

That said, we should clamp down and mandate fluency in English. The last thing America needs is yet another permanently disadvantaged minority culture.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42137: Nov 27th 2012 at 8:53:12 PM

[up][up]

How am I reaching?

I'm pointing out that this wave of immigrants is unlike previous immigrant waves this country has experienced due to the cultural bonds of the immigrants and the sagging birthrate of this country's national born citizens.

edited 27th Nov '12 8:54:09 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#42138: Nov 27th 2012 at 8:53:58 PM

[up][up]Like we mandated English for every other group of immigrants? Did you not even read what I wrote?

edited 27th Nov '12 8:54:28 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#42139: Nov 27th 2012 at 8:59:10 PM

@Fighteer: We did mandate English. Maybe not by forcing everyone to know it in the law, but do you think you could get by in 19th century America without knowing English? It's only in our time that we've started putting lots of signs and labels in Spanish to make things easier for non-English speakers.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
#42140: Nov 27th 2012 at 8:59:11 PM

Wait, is Deviant arguing that the influx of Hispanics is bad for our society in general? I agree with his sentiments that we should encourage assimilation over segregation, but I don't see why this particular wave is different from any other.

As far as the language goes, so what? It's nice to encourage English, but I personally have no problem with enriching out American linguistics with el Español. We already have to a large extent.

edited 27th Nov '12 9:11:36 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#42141: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:00:47 PM

It's not really. The only real difference is a common language. Apart from that, I don't see a lot of important differences.

@Grizzly: Because white Americans aren't going to all learn Spanish just because their gardeners suddenly speak it. So what happens is that you split society into two groups, an elite majority culture speaking English, and a poor lower class speaking Spanish. Upward mobility stops happening. And things just fall apart. It's better to simply make everyone in America learn English.

edited 27th Nov '12 9:06:09 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42142: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:04:30 PM

[up][up]

Does no one read what I write? This wave is different from the others. I listed reasons why.

As for whether the influx of Hispanics is bad for our society or not, I would say the overall consequences are a mix of pros and cons.

edited 27th Nov '12 9:05:56 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#42143: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:09:33 PM

@Deviant: Earlier waves of immigrants had a higher birthrate too. How many White Anglo-Saxon Protestants do you think are left?

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42144: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:10:08 PM

Senator McConnell calls proposed Senate rules change ‘Affront to the American People'

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
#42145: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:12:40 PM

Because white Americans aren't going to all learn Spanish just because their gardeners suddenly speak it.

Why not? Half of high schoolers already are required to study it, it might as well actually be useful. Likewise, Hispanics who want to rise in society can and will learn English.

<><
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#42146: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:13:10 PM

[up][up]I find it amusing that the Examiner quotes McConnell more than it discusses the actual proposed rules change. This makes it very difficult to tell what the change actually is. You can almost feel the outrage spewing from the page.

[up] I speak some Spanish, though not fluently. It's a great thing to know.

edited 27th Nov '12 9:13:38 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#42147: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:14:00 PM

I don't like this man, and I don't like the Republicans. But he's got a point. The Democrats have the support of a little over half the nation. They shouldn't marginalize the other half.

That said, I'd like to see what this tyranny is that's got Mitch so worried. I doubt it's as bad as he makes out.

@Edwards: I'm heartened by your belief in the American public school system. I don't share it, but it's nice to see.

edited 27th Nov '12 9:18:53 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#42148: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:24:42 PM

Harry Reid Says Bob Dole is 'Infirm,' Aide Says He's Fine

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#42149: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:34:31 PM

The Mc Connell article is awfully vague, but I think it's referring to Harry Reid's recent attempts to nerf the filibuster so that this doesn't happen anymore.

They brought it on themselves, really. If they hadn't abused it so blatantly it wouldn't even be on the radar for discussion in the first place.

I don't like this man, and I don't like the Republicans. But he's got a point. The Democrats have the support of a little over half the nation. They shouldn't marginalize the other half.

There's a difference between 'marginalization' and 'not being able to obstruct everything the majority puts forth.' This reads to me remarkably similar to the tone of a video gamer complaining that a minor nerf to their favorite class suddenly made their character completely useless and they'll never ever be able to play it again.

edited 27th Nov '12 9:40:22 PM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#42150: Nov 27th 2012 at 9:38:33 PM

Okay, I agree. It's time to go. No more of that.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

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