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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#41826: Nov 22nd 2012 at 7:15:53 PM

Well, they manage to make it work in Nevada, Cats.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41827: Nov 22nd 2012 at 7:35:35 PM

I think the prostitution topic has kind of jumped the shark, and is only tenuously related to the thread to begin with.

But, then again, who doesn't love whores? Amirite? Guys? Guys? <Awkward silence>

Ahem.

edited 22nd Nov '12 7:35:45 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#41828: Nov 22nd 2012 at 7:36:18 PM

Maybe this thread should get locked. The upcoming fiscal cliff showdown deserves a thread of its own.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#41829: Nov 22nd 2012 at 7:45:00 PM

[up]Not really. The fiscal cliff is American politics. I don't see what's so special about that we can't just discuss it here.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41830: Nov 22nd 2012 at 7:48:42 PM

Maybe this thread should get locked. The upcoming fiscal cliff showdown deserves a thread of its own.

There are things happening in American politics that are unrelated to the Fiscal Cliff.

Another Republican lawmaker ditches Norquist tax pledge

Republican Sen. Saxby Chambliss (Ga.) on Wednesday said that addressing the nation’s looming “fiscal cliff” took precedence over honoring the anti-tax pledge he signed for conservative activist Grover Norquist.

“I care more about my country than I do about a 20-year-old pledge,” said Chambliss to local Georgia television station 13WMAZ. “If we do it his way then we’ll continue in debt, and I just have a disagreement with him about that.”

edited 22nd Nov '12 8:01:38 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#41831: Nov 22nd 2012 at 7:52:52 PM

I would propose limiting this thread to issues that are currently being debated within the US political arena, and that "big picture" or academic perspectives on single issues be given threads of their own. IOW, I think it makes sense to discuss what is being said about a wide variety of issues within this thread, while at the same time starting independent threads for the purpose of going into more detail about particular topics.

edited 22nd Nov '12 7:53:39 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41832: Nov 22nd 2012 at 7:53:38 PM

[up]

I agree.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41833: Nov 22nd 2012 at 7:56:11 PM

Ha, Republicans actually taking efforts to combat the deficit instead of merely using it as a way of attacking social programs. Nice.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41834: Nov 22nd 2012 at 8:11:31 PM

Jeb Bush Jr. wants father to run for president, calls Rubio remark 'strange'

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#41835: Nov 22nd 2012 at 8:14:02 PM

Are you seriously going to tell me that the people involved in prostitution already aren't trapped in some fashion? By some "very nice men" in a lot of cases? There's a way of helping them out... and this is it. There is also a way of making sure that those involved get a chance at other options by making it legal and better controlled. Heck... unionising wouldn't hurt.

Unfortunately, legalizing it has the marked tendency to make the black market and human trafficking into the area balloon even further rather than shutting it out. It increases demand by legitimizing the practice, but the black market thrives by dodging costs from regulation, health, and oversight — in some cases, eclipsing the legal avenues several times over. See Australia, where in the relevant areas you have a 9:1 ratio of black market to legal trade.

From what I've heard though, the best way to stop it is to not make prostitution itself illegal but make buying from a prostitute illegal.

Yes, the Swedish Kvinnofrid approach — criminalizing the purchase but not the sale, giving unwilling prostitutes an out free of reprisal. It caused prostitution in the area to drop by an entire order of magnitude within a couple years because, surprise, that was the vast majority of the industry.

EDIT: Apparently this is off topic now. That's what I get for not refreshing the page after dinner.

edited 22nd Nov '12 8:20:36 PM by Pykrete

#41836: Nov 22nd 2012 at 8:15:59 PM

I will be interesting to see how things go now that Obama has nothing to lose and the GOP has lost their bid to unseat him.

edited 22nd Nov '12 8:17:35 PM by EdwardsGrizzly

<><
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#41837: Nov 22nd 2012 at 9:02:21 PM

Go Chambliss! Finally Georgia has something to not be embarrassed about.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#41838: Nov 22nd 2012 at 9:07:47 PM

[up][up][up] Or prostitution dried up because people aren't going to buy an illicit service from someone who faces no legal repercussions from the exchange and can out them without fear. Seems like a recipe for blackmail, personally.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#41839: Nov 22nd 2012 at 9:17:07 PM

@Pykrete: Thank you.

I also don't see why we would be trying to protect the rights of people who are taking advantage of those who are being coerced into preforming sex acts.

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#41840: Nov 22nd 2012 at 9:28:24 PM

I was confused by that swedish law for a while. makes sense now though.

I'm baaaaaaack
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#41841: Nov 22nd 2012 at 9:31:43 PM

[up][up] I'm saying that, under that system, even someone who wants to hire a non-coerced, free agent prostitute will be hesitant to do so, since the prostitute would gain considerable leverage over the client.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41843: Nov 22nd 2012 at 10:57:28 PM

Boehner wants to put Obamacare on the Fiscal Cliff Negotiations.

So much for the Grand Bargain.tongue

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Skatepunk Since: Feb, 2011
#41844: Nov 23rd 2012 at 1:49:10 AM

[up]

Hopefully that results in the scenario that I want most: sequester happens as planned, Dems successfully pressure GOP to retroactively restore the Bush Tax Cuts for the 98% under pressure from the public, and vital programs like Medicare and SS avoid cuts.

Either way, Boehner is an idiot for proposing such a thing.

As for prostitution, it is still illegal in Clark and Washoe counties (over 2/3rds of Nevada's entire population live in JUST those two counties). On top of that, protection is required, and disturbingly, Nevada prostitutes have a FAR lower rate of ST Ds than Hollywood porn stars.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41845: Nov 23rd 2012 at 4:47:30 AM

I'm getting tired of all this talk about prostitution. (Beat) Not really, but I just want to make the point that unless a current train of conversation has clearly become empty or has devolved into flaming, it isn't fair to get impatient because others discuss it simply because it doesn't jibe with your sensibilities.

Now on to it: going back some pages.

Sex is far more important than soda. Not an apples-to-apples-comparison.

I'd like to introduce a new trope, Perfect Comparison Fallacy. A logical fallacy that posits that a comparison is invalid because the two things being compared have differences.

To use the phrase above, even in the case of two apples, they are still two different apples, even if the differences between them aren't evident to the naked eye. Additionally, there are a great many comparisons you can draw between oranges and apples; they are fruits grown on trees, they can be used to make juice, they're sold in supermarkets, etc.

One troper made the point that my comparison of the persecution LGBT people has parallels to the treatment of Christians wasn't valid because they're not the same. No kidding, of course, they're not the same. In short, two different things can still share a characteristic and thus have a legitimate basis for drawing a parallel.

You feel that since Mourdock's premises and resulting position do not have to be explicitly misogynistic, and because he did not express an explicitly misogynistic position, it is unfair to treat him as a misogynist. I do not care about positions held in theory; I care about the consequences. When Mourdock or anyone like him frames the issue in a way that advances misogyny and rape culture and then expresses his position therein, he is advancing misogyny and rape culture, even if by accident. Nuance doesn't dispel the consequences of your actions; the responsibility is on you to deliver your argument in a way that does not do implicit harm, if you know how. At best, those like Mourdock don't need to find nicer words or refine their positions further, they need to smarten up and understand framing effects (according to my position of course). That is my position. It follows from its premises and I state it openly and sincerely [....]

We're not being unfair to fundamentalist Christian conservatives here; they have the chance to express their positions in ways that don't harm people, and too often, that's not happening.

I'm sorry Taoist, but I find this another variation on the "Well, it's okay if I lie about his statements since they're wrong anyway" and quite frankly that idea is below someone of your reputation.

I have no problem with you finding Mourdock's views misogynistic. You'd be wrong, but that's your right to interpret that way. The problem is when you take his statements, conflate them with your interpretation, and then say "That's what he said", You are now doing what we call "lying".

Additionally, while I see the logic of your "framing" argument, I'm uncomfortable with the implications. This argument of "Well, if he wanted people to not misunderstand him, he had a responsibility to frame it better," takes the responsibility off of people to actually listen openly and honestly to the statement being made. I've lost count of how many times a post of mine, written clearly and accurately, is conflated to something else, simply because someone read it with their own agenda and biases rather than what was on the screen.

People might get annoyed with me and Grizzly belaboring this point, but that's really too bad. This is a bad habit that happens all too often here and in Real Life, and somebody has to call it out when it happens, whether it's the right-winger who hears a left-winger someone say "We need to fix social programs" and hears "We want to take more money from those who earn to give those who mooch,".....or.....the left-winger who hears a right-winger say "We need to fix social programs" and automatically assumes they mean "Let's get rid of them once and for all."

It was an honor
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#41846: Nov 23rd 2012 at 6:53:36 AM

Boehner's either a moron for thinking he can pull this off or a simpering ninny for not being able to stand up to the Tea Partiers.

I have no problem with you finding Mourdock's views misogynistic. You'd be wrong, but that's your right to interpret that way. The problem is when you take his statements, conflate them with your interpretation, and then say "That's what he said", You are now doing what we call "lying".
Remember, I'm arguing about the consequences of what he said and what he assumed before he even started speaking. I didn't pull anything out of his language that was not there, and while his position might not align with the damaging nature of his statement, it's still damaging.

As for your statement on standards of proof, I see your point, but the thing is, you can control what you say. You cannot control how other people interpret what you say. Nobody, however, can control the consequences of what you say once you've said it. So you should pay attention to the context in which you are speaking and know how you've framed your argument. Before accusing other people of misunderstanding your position, it falls on you to understand your own position, including all the possible ramifications of you expressing your position. If saying something a certain way would have consequences you don't agree with, even if it makes clear you don't agree with those consequences, you might want to find another way to express yourself.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41847: Nov 23rd 2012 at 7:28:35 AM

You're Taoist, of course you didn't pull anything out of what he said that wasn't there. You, like many tropers here, do a good job of reading what's actually there.

My continuing issue with your position is that it seems to place unreasonable onus on the speaker. Of course it's the responsibility of the speaker to be as clear as possible on what they say and to make sure they give considerable thought to the implications thereof. On that point, I'm 100% in agreement with you.

However....I think there's a line in which reasonable responsibility morphs into a paranoid and counterproductive desperation to never say anything unpopular or controversial lest the backlash devour any intelligent discourse. It leads to a point where true incisive thinkers shave off every edge, water down any bitterness, and obfuscate any controversial point until the statement they make is a toothless cartoon shadow of their original point.

This is the THE problem with US politics, with the culture divide between right/left-conservative/liberal-theistic/nontheistic, and with societal discourse in general.

The classic Republican bloc I was proud to be a part of devolved into this immature caricature known for blinding stupidity and arrogance precisely becase the minute someone said "I think there needs to be some oversight in the finance industry", they responded with "This evil socialist wants to destroy the free market and turn us into a communist state!"

Could the people who called for such oversight have "framed" the issue better so that the populists didn't "misread" them? Yes, perhaps. I mean yes, take the Paul Krugman fan club around here (no offense guys smile). Would they be better served if there was more to Krugman's articles than "I'm so smart, why don't people listen to me"? Disclaimer

Perhaps.

My question is But WHY is that necessary? Why can't people learn to parse a statement accurately and agree or disagree with it on its own merits? Why should we lower the intellectual bar rather than raise it?

Imagine if people were dedicated to honestly appraising arguments. We'd never have Churches spreading malicious and evil lies that gays caused AIDS or that homosexual orientation is caused by child abuse. We might've gotten that financial regulation sooner and this Recession might never have happened. Liberals might realize the conservatives want many of the things they want and we'd have more meaningful progress on economic reform, expansion of social programs, and mitigation of global warming.

That is why I'm so adamant about that ideal.

edited 23rd Nov '12 8:59:01 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#41848: Nov 23rd 2012 at 8:27:59 AM

Hmmm. The question, then, becomes how do we get to that point?

Because saying "I'm so over bad communication and I'm willing to understand people's positions" is probably going to be as effective at improving communication vis a vis politics as saying "I'm so over racism and I'm willing to understand people of color" is effective at removing racism. I'd rather compensate for the problem in a way that improve the problem so that the compensation becomes obsolete. It's kind of academic at this point.

Speaking of racism, where's our thread on the War on Drugs? I wanted to link this video and can't find it.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#41849: Nov 23rd 2012 at 8:38:14 AM

This thread is about some news item to do with ending the War on Drugs. The newest post is from April.

Here's something about a global commission coming to the conclusion that the War on Drugs has failed. This was last posted in over a year ago.

There's no general discussion about this topic. You can create one, if you like; just remember to write a good OP that defines the War on Drugs and maybe opens up (or at least lists) some of the questions that've been raised about it.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41850: Nov 23rd 2012 at 9:02:33 AM

Because saying "I'm so over bad communication and I'm willing to understand people's positions" is probably going to be as effective at improving communication vis a vis politics as saying "I'm so over racism and I'm willing to understand people of color" is effective at removing racism. I'd rather compensate for the problem in a way that improve the problem so that the compensation becomes obsolete. It's kind of academic at this point.

I couldn't disagree more. You know that as a civil libertarian I reject the notion that since it's just too darn difficult for people to grow up, let's just let them live out their lives and will keep away all the sharp objects and heavy machinery.

I don't think fixing the discourse will happen overnight, but I don't think it's an 'academic' exercise either. As has happened throughout history, we force people to face uncomfortable truths. Climate change is real and is a problem. Slavery can't be tolerated. Neither can homophobia.

It's not that complicated. Difficult, yes. Complicated, no.

It was an honor

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