Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Not that I've seen. Mostly, it's seen as a matter of Government Control vs Public Responsibility.
"The marvel is not that the Bear posts well, but that the Bear posts at all."I'd have to agree with Hilarity, and there's a substantial group that feels that way (no, I don't have the hard stats). Although the way he describes it is a bit...simplistic.
It's not that people feel that they're living dangerously, think they're invincible, what have you.
A lot of people in this country are looking for any place that they can hang on to their already small paychecks. Now, they see this thing called "health insurance" on their paystub. To them, it only represents an amount of money they can't use to buy groceries, or take that vacation, or buy a better oven, whatever. Most working people didn't actually go out and choose a health plan; their bosses picked a provider and said "Check a box".
So here's this person who, outside of dental visits and the occasional check-up, doesn't actually use this health insurance. So this only reinforces their view that it isn't "health insurance" and rather that it's "yet more of my hard-earned money taken from me from some dubious bullshit reason."
And for some people, this is in fact, correct. For some people, it really is more a cost, than anything they actually get in return. It's the hypothetically similar to automatically deducting gym memberships or movie ticket passes from people's paychecks, regardless of how much they use them, or even if they want them.
edited 21st Nov '12 1:01:33 PM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honorKeep in mind that until Obamacare prevented insurers from screwing people over*, it was basically an overall loss in all circumstances to have health insurance at all in the US. Those who never had a nasty condition paid more into it than they saved from checkups and dental work, and those who did had their insurer back out on them and they had to pay that cost a second time for themselves while the insurer ran off with the first one.
Granted, that's rather impossible to do when the other side's inevitable and immediate response to "no abortion" is "BUT WHAT ABOUT RAPE?" I mean seriously, it's the first goddamn thing pro-choicers bring up every time this forum has the debate before it gets locked down. There's no way to separate the issue.
edited 21st Nov '12 1:27:55 PM by Pykrete
![]()
Right. It must be emphasized that while Obamacare is not the ideal solution, it is an improvement over what we have now, which makes it worth having.
Well, it would place them in the traditional conservative anti-abortion camp, which is kind of par for the course and so not worthy of special attention.
edited 21st Nov '12 1:24:23 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"At the very least, they'd be slightly more likely to be disagreed with on their actual stance, as it's rather more difficult to divorce from context to make them look like concentrated evil.
edited 21st Nov '12 1:28:19 PM by Pykrete
@Starship: Yeah, that's probably more accurate.
I really do think some people in, say, the tea party are prone to take their commitment to self-reliance to self-destructive levels, though. Kind of goes hand in hand with the pathological hatred of government. There are also the things you mentioned, of course.
My point is just that there will always be people who are reluctant to any form of mandated coverage, among them being the overconfident people who think they don't need it or those who are put off by the fact that it involves paying for something which they don't see the immediate benefits for. All you can really say to those kinds of people is "hey, there's no free lunch and we're all going to have to chip in if this is going to work."
@Pyk: That is also true.
Funny how TANSTAAFL applies both ways when you really look at it.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Agreed, but those aren't the only people who need to hear the message.
I'm more than willing to have insurance and pay a little extra to cover everyone. But you have people continue to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, refuse to even jog four blocks a day, shove fried grease into their face by the truckload, and drink like fish. They do this even though they are racking up a ton of ailments that will obviously throw strain on our healthcare infrastructure. I mean I'd think the science clearly saying that excessive smoking, drinking, greasy fat, and dearth of exercise will lead to a litany of health woes is at least "irrefutable" as the Earth being 4.5 million years old.
And yet, as this thread has demonstrated, the mere suggestion that the people needing help should also be expected to take some agency in "making this work" will get you labelled a Tea Party lunatic who wants to victim-blame and give more to the rich.
edited 21st Nov '12 1:48:03 PM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honor
Toi be fair. the exercise and eat healthy thing ignores 2 teensy problems.
1: healthy food aint cheap or easy to get.
2: exercise in public is hell when you're fat. Do you know what happens every time I debate going to a gym? I chicken out because of fear that someone who isnt already in great shape in a gym or out taking a run will be laughed at.
Not to mention that gym memberships are expensive.
![]()
Yeah, unless you're like me, and dislocated a knee while doing sports, and never got it properly looked at because you couldn't afford the doctor's visit.
edited 21st Nov '12 1:51:20 PM by DrunkGirlfriend
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian![]()
I used to have the same problem. The solution? Go to a small gym. Pilates is an excellent starting point.
So, what are the factions within the Democrat party?
edited 21st Nov '12 1:52:36 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/20/politics/tea-party-grief/index.html?iref=obinsite
I wish the rest of the GOP good luck. If this wing of the party continues to push them to the fringe than they really won't have a prayer. You can't get anywhere without acknowledging your mistakes.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.Duly noted Midget. Balance is a consideration as always. Telling someone that unless they get a membership in a food co-op, they aren't entitled to healthcare is at least as idiotic as saying someone doesn't deserve welfare because they took an afternoon off to play video games instead of job hunting.
But to go to your second point; if healthcare is a right, and if America is so backwards and behind compared to the Nordic model, quote unquote, then shouldn't it be important enough to stomach a bit of embarrassment if it means that you'll improve your health and not be a burden to your family or your fellow taxpayers? If you don't do that, then who's now being "selfish" and "entitled"?
But beyond that, as we discussed in the obesity thread, I can think of few greater tragedies than you not living a full and healthy life due to embarrassment. When I say I want to combat this thinking, I'm not doing it because I want some rich douchebag who's never lifted anything heavier than a champagne glass to have even more money.
It's because I feel Midgetsnowman is as entitled to a long happy healthy life as The Starship Maxima, as the rich douchebag, as anyone else. It's your God-given right and I don't want some indoctrination to keep you from it.
Y'know, there's a reason "My dear DG, we're not talking about you", has become a Stock Phrase for me.
edited 21st Nov '12 2:00:19 PM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honorWait. So you're saying that you should have to do unpleasant things to benefit from things that are rights? Isn't that kind of the exact opposite of a right, and the definition of a privilege?
DG: I got hit by a car once and never went to see the doctor because I'm uninsured, so now my knee persistently bothers me.
edited 21st Nov '12 2:05:17 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
People who need help shouldn't get a free pass, either. This is actually one of my main problems with the Tea Party: they complain about moochers and beggars who look for handouts, but they are unwilling to really even acknowledge the concept of shared responsibility when it involves them.
edited 21st Nov '12 2:07:38 PM by HilarityEnsues
I put money that if Scrib was 6 blocks away and getting beat up by Tea Party loons, you'd not only run the 6 blocks, you'd kick their asses as well.
Citation needed. But honestly, like I said, I'd like to be reasonable. A person with real issues shouldn't be penalized because of medical problems they have no control over.
I'm talking about the everyday stuff. The steady lack of exercise that leads to the gut becoming overweight leading to clogged arteries leading to back pains and arthritis leading to a shit ton of prescriptions and hospital visits.
You know, you do your part, I'll do mine, and we'll all come out of this better than we were.
Willful Ignorant and Blithely Stupid are real Character Alignment s.
edited 21st Nov '12 2:17:59 PM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honor@Max: Read this?
Also, keep in mind that there are set medical definitions for "overweight", "obese" and "morbidly obese".
And yes, that's true, but it also works in reverse as well. I think that we need to make medical care accessible to everyone first, then work on lifestyle changes.
edited 21st Nov '12 2:19:36 PM by DrunkGirlfriend
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -DrunkscriblerianUm, no. It's a case of understanding that, much like liberty, rights aren't free. Like liberty, all people are entitled to them, and as such, all people have a responsibility to protect it, and not hinder it from others.
Moreover, I fail to see what's so unpleasant about saying if you're going to ask people to share a burden, then don't unnecessarily increase that burden.
Meh, I say lifestyle first, but toe-may-toe, to-mah-to, whatever. I like your plan. See DG, you and I can agree.
edited 21st Nov '12 2:23:00 PM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honor

Wait, what the hell? Is there actually a significant portion of the US who thinks this?