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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#41601: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:07:58 AM

"I complain when more people believe the other side's lies than my own side's."

Is an implicit acceptance of lying. "I complain when either side lies" (and we can argue about "sides" later) is really the only acceptable sentence.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
LMage Since: May, 2011
#41602: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:11:32 AM

To be honest, I would be worried if neither side was lying. As sad a fact as it is, lying is a fixture of modern politics, it's just what is lied about and why, and being informed enough to know both.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41603: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:11:56 AM

Hey gang, it's not that complicated. You disagree with Mourdock because you object to his premise. Fine. You find that due to his flawed premises, you deem he shouldn't be in office. Fine. You find that he demonstrates a fundamental lack of basic common sense based on his statements. Fine.

If you're going to twist the basic premise of his statement, you are a hypocrite. If you're going to say that it's really okay if you change and distort his words since "his position is wrong anyway", you are a hypocrite. And if you're going to go the extra mile as Fish 1 has done and blithely claim all this a-ok, you are barely worth speaking with.

Again, Shima's profile quote his very appropriate here "Truth is that which, when you ignore it, doesn't go away."

edited 21st Nov '12 9:18:16 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Fish1 h Since: Sep, 2010
h
#41604: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:13:10 AM

[up][up][up] Without some way of divining whether someone is telling the truth or not, everyone has to accept the possibility of lies, in every facet of life.

If you're going to twist the basic premise of his statement, you are a hypocrite.
I

And if you're going to go the extra mile as Fish 1 has done and blithely claim all this a-ok, you are barely worth speaking with.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

edited 21st Nov '12 9:17:39 AM by Fish1

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41605: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:17:10 AM

@Fish1 and thatguythere47, I'm not sure what set the two of you off, but I'd appreciate it if the locker room head-butting could be moved somewhere else. This thread is for mature discussion.

"All politicians lie therefore I don't like any of them" is a worthless statement and can only be considered flamebait. If that's your level of discourse, please don't bother. Further, attacking someone over this statement is equally pointless. Just ignore it and don't get sucked in.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41606: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:20:18 AM

[up][up]I think Best Of did a rather good job of deconstructing his words without disagreeing with the premise.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41607: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:20:32 AM

No, Fish 1, I am most certainly worth speaking with because I will defer to the truth, whether it comes from my side or the "other" side. As Captain Picard might say, "A mature troper's first obligation is to the truth. Whether about politics, about anime, or about forum rules. It's the founding principle on which the Forum Rules are based. If you can't do that, then you don't deserve a troper account."

by Edwards Grizzly, as "any and all pregnancy is always good, no matter the cause". Is that how you understand it and what you agree with?

To answer your question Medinoc, that is closer to the meaning that I understood and I agreed with. But not quite there.

No, I don't believe all pregnancy is good. Pregnancy through rape is unbelievably fucked up. Pregnancy through an affair is less fucked up, but still bad. Pregnancy between two married but dysfunctional people, bad. There are other permutations, I could throw in.

But.....human life is precious. And the destruction of innocent human life, for ANY reason other than to preserve another, is something we should attempt to avoid at ALL costs.

That was my premise and I believe it's Mourdock's as well.

It was an honor
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#41608: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:23:53 AM

So thinking that politicians lying is wrong is flamebait, good to know.

[up] I'd say that was his point, yes. Bestof made an excellent argument against your reasoning earlier so I don't feel the need to repost it or derail this thread into a debate about your premises. We should probably move that into a general thread for religion talk...

edited 21st Nov '12 9:27:43 AM by thatguythere47

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#41609: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:29:57 AM

Thatguythere47, Fighteer's post says nothing of the sort. You've added your own words to his statement, directly contradicting it in an attempt to misrepresent his position. Quit it.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41610: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:30:45 AM

[up] [up]No, no, I saw Best Of's arguments. As a man who is staunchly pro-life Best Of's counter was one of the most [awesome]ly intelligent thoughts I've seen.

Seriously, him and Fighteer are so good they damn near make me think I agree with them.

[up] Wait, what?

edited 21st Nov '12 9:31:12 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#41611: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:34:28 AM

Honestly a lot of the difference in responses pretty much cone down to how one would answer the problem of evil. I mean honestly I agree most with Biden's position.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#41612: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:35:34 AM

[up]X9 Starship, have you even been reading the posts people have been making? Apart from Fish I think everyone who's posted here since Grizzly pointed out the manipulation has been in agreement that manipulation and lying is wrong, whoever does it. In short, we agree with you so can you please stop acting like everyone in this thread is going "Nah it's fine when the Dems lie" when from what I've seen in the latest batch of posts, we've almost unanimously been going "It's wrong no matter who is lying".

edited 21st Nov '12 9:35:48 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#41613: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:35:48 AM

@Lu127: I've done nothing of the sort and I'm formally disagreeing with fighteer's and your assertion that Fish and I's disagreement was out-of-line but I'll drop it.

@Cat: I'd agree that this is essentially the sticking point in this debate. I find it more evil to force a woman to carry a child she doesn't want to. The only way to move the debate forward at this point is to start debating our premises and we're supposed to avoid that now so w/e.

[up] Up until recently it's been a major problem. Hopefully rhe past few pages will make people think before they post. It does require an active effort to confront your own biases and thoughts and none of us are perfect.

edited 21st Nov '12 9:41:44 AM by thatguythere47

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41614: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:37:22 AM

@Silasw - Point taken.

It was an honor
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#41615: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:40:49 AM

I think the main problem is that politicians do not think out what the full ramifications of fetal personhood are.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#41616: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:42:24 AM

[up]

well, of course not. The entire point to fetal personhood is to get gut reactions about child murder riled up.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41617: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:43:34 AM

This is going into that disallowed territory of discussing abortion.

The point is that it's possible to disagree with people without resorting to twisting their words, which as Silasw has told me, everyone seems to get. This is a really good development.

edited 21st Nov '12 9:44:06 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41618: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:43:58 AM

I disagree strongly with Mourdock's political positions. I also think that his statement, however it was meant, was a case of "Open mouth, insert foot here" in the current political environment.

The core problem that I see is that many conservatives seem unable to even comprehend why their attitudes about rape and abortion would inspire disgust and outrage from those not in their camp.

In point of fact, not all babies are "a gift from God" to the women who conceive them, an issue that the right tends to ignore whenever it's inconvenient. Having a child is a terrific investment of resources even for someone who wholeheartedly wants it; to say that a woman must bear to term a fetus that was put into her involuntarily is unimaginably cruel to her.

We can argue up and down about the "personhood" of the fetus in question, but that is an abortion derail and as such should be canned.

Now let's let this settle down a bit. Maybe we can discuss Krugman's latest or something.

edited 21st Nov '12 9:45:49 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#41619: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:48:22 AM

Fighteer, I swear... if you're not Krugman himself, you work for The Times. [lol] You want me to get a subscription, don't you? evil grin

<bites bullet and reads>

Hmmm... I've dealt extensively with the NHS and PPP (private health insurance provider). I concur: the insurer expects more of a rainforest out of me. tongue

edited 21st Nov '12 9:50:18 AM by Euodiachloris

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41620: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:49:37 AM

You don't need a subscription to read directly linked articles. You do, however, to link within the site. I think the Times doesn't take their paywall very seriously.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fish1 h Since: Sep, 2010
h
#41621: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:53:10 AM

Let's just clear this whole thing up by posting the entirety of my position on lying and politics. I think that there is always going to be, to some degree, a certain amount of falsehood/twisting the truth/etc. in politics. I think that people do have a responsibility to find out what those lies are, but I also think that people will come to different conclusions as to what are lies and what aren't lies, simply because people are different. This is something that I have accepted. I don't like it, but I don't dislike it much either, because I do believe that people are both willing and able to spot hypocrisy and lies in politics(even if we disagree on who the liars and hypocrites are.)

I'm sorry that I brought this thread down by shooting from the hip earlier, and I'm sorry that implied that Maxima wasn't worth speaking to. I'd like it if everyone could either forgive or forget my temporary lapse in judgment earlier, but if not, that's fine as well.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41622: Nov 21st 2012 at 9:58:19 AM

And right there Fish, you demonstrate precisely why, no matter how flaky or how fake-ass our politicians are, the ordinary good guy still gives us hope.

It was an honor
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#41623: Nov 21st 2012 at 10:07:31 AM

I've had the unfortunate luck to be stuck in the hospital many times in my short life and I've never really seen this bureaucratic headache people are scared of. The only complaint I have is the waiting times involved if you aren't dying which has less to do with paper work and more to do with having very few doctors.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
Inhopelessguy Since: Apr, 2011
#41624: Nov 21st 2012 at 10:46:43 AM

... The shitting fuck went down here

I swear, Fighteer, maybe you used to work for The Economist or something. Or maybe you wouldn't be caught working for that rag. tongue

HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#41625: Nov 21st 2012 at 11:49:14 AM

I think the problem that comes up when you're talking about healthcare policy is that there seems to be a significant number of people who simply don't want to have any coverage whatsoever. It's not a question of whether they prefer one system over the other, they just think they are invincible/like to live dangerously/etc. and thus reject all medical assistance. Obviously the fear of government plays a large part in the opposition to healthcare reform too, but I think that's just one factor.

That's why I don't think compromises have much of a point, at least in terms of appeasing the electorate.


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