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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41451: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:08:39 PM

The comparison of the modern GOP to fascism has been made before, but it no longer carries any impact. It's technically a Godwin, but in a way the constant Godwinning of arguments from all sides has made the comparison worthless even when it is apt. And anyway, it's trite. Address the arguments on their own merits.

edited 20th Nov '12 12:10:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#41452: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:09:14 PM

[up][up]That goes under No True Scotsman, by the way.

edited 20th Nov '12 12:09:26 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#41453: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:15:22 PM

Personally, I prefer the theocracy comparison for the GOP.

edited 20th Nov '12 12:15:38 PM by deathpigeon

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41454: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:17:29 PM

The modern core GOP is an alliance of plutocrats and theocrats, with a few outliers. That's a pretty good way to frame it. Krugman did so today, in fact: "[T]oday’s Republican party is an alliance between the plutocrats and the preachers, plus some opportunists along for the ride — full stop."

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#41455: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:23:28 PM

Fighteer, you can stop pretending. We all know you're really Krugman.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#41457: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:24:06 PM

Treasury Secretary calls for the abolishment of the debt ceiling.smile

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41459: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:29:26 PM

Geithner showing common sense? Wow, color me impressed. And I only wish I were Paul Krugman. Except that he lives in New Jersey; I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

edited 20th Nov '12 12:31:45 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#41460: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:25:28 PM

FANBOY! :P

Anyway, I wonder if it's possible for the Republican Party to face a coup? I mean, if their heads are far enough up their asses that they can bash Chris Christie for telling them to shut up and grab Obama-provided shovels, or excommunicate Colin Powell for not toeing the line, eventually they'll find that they've excommunicated enough of their people that the heretics outnumber the True Faith.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41461: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:38:50 PM

There has been lots of wild speculation about the GOP fracturing. I suspect that it's premature; for now, the arch-conservative coalition has a deathgrip on the party's base, despite the "reasonable Republicans" sending messages of comity. The Tea Party, the voice of the most fractious and destructive elements of the party, is somewhat subdued at the moment and the ones that aren't making offers of compromise are busy blaming all the evil entitled "non-white-males" for the mess.

The tests will start in Congress, with the forthcoming "fiscal cliff" and debt ceiling negotiations. We'll see who compromises first: Obama or the Republican House members. Later, the 2014 Congressional primaries will throw some light on the GOP's willingness to be inclusive. If there continues to be a stark contest between Tea Party types and more center-leaning candidates, it's a good sign that a schism is coming.

Realistically, though, it's going to come down to 2016. If the GOP won't compromise on the hard right positions, nominates another joke candidate, and gets creamed again, it'll be all but over.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41462: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:44:44 PM

Eh.

It's a different electorate in 2014. I think you can expect that Republicans will routinely pick up seats in midterm years, and lose seats in election years.

Barring some major change, of course.

edited 20th Nov '12 1:44:55 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41463: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:49:12 PM

2014 is going to see the implementation of Obamacare — that's almost inevitable now. If the GOP can't push us into another recession and 30 million people start being able to visit the doctor regularly... I just don't see a loss of seats in the midterms reasonably happening.

Republicans are really stuck between a rock and a hard place here. If they continue their fiscal intransigence, people will associate them with yet another showdown over the economy, which didn't work out so well for them in 2011. If they don't and the economy continues to improve, Obama will take the credit.

They were betting everything on getting Romney in office so they could start to repeal shit. They literally do not have a game plan for what to do now.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#41464: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:54:28 PM

Of course they have a game plan. Tank the economy and throw as much shit as possible at Obama and the Democrats and see what sticks. The scary part is that it might actually work if they don't negotiate a deal on the fiscal cliff.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41465: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:57:55 PM

I don't think that was really their plan. For some it is, yes, but the current floundering from Boehner and others indicates that they weren't expecting to have to pull off another showdown. They thought that Romney would win and they could avoid it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#41466: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:59:00 PM

Well then they're dumber than I thought. I cannot fathom how anybody expected him to win. The electorate that consumes a steady diet of BS, sure, but not the party leaders like Boehner, Romney/Ryan, and the various talking heads. They should have realized early on that they had an almost impossible task ahead of them.

edited 20th Nov '12 1:59:24 PM by Kostya

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#41467: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:00:50 PM

Realistically, though, it's going to come down to 2016. If the GOP won't compromise on the hard right positions, nominates another joke candidate, and gets creamed again, it'll be all but over.

Not necessarily. The GOP doesn't have to live in reality, remember. Their constituency isn't going anywhere. wild mass guessMaybe that's why they're against sex ed; they need their people to breed the next generation of Republicans.wild mass guess

They lose any chance at winning the Presidency if they keep electing the women-are-ducks crowd, but their Congressional base isn't going anywhere, and all they need are forty-one Senators to keep anything from being done. So if there isn't a fracturing or a coup, there'll be a permanent, disloyal opposition that serves to keep the current big-tent Democratic coalition together.

@Kostya: The fiscal cliff works in Obama's favor, not the Republicans'. He can always watch the automatic cuts and tax hikes happen and cut a deal afterwards.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#41468: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:05:46 PM

[up]I'm not positive on him not doing anything beforehand being the best course of action. It will lead to another recession and that certainly won't look good regardless of the actual reasons behind it. His best option is to pass a bill that cuts taxes on only the middle class and just let it go through. Social services will take a hit but at the very least he'll keep the middle class from getting squeezed anymore. Also I'm curious whether or not the GOP will be stupid enough to vote against a bill that cuts taxes.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#41469: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:07:52 PM

The GOP won't vote against a bill that cuts taxes. The GOP will vote against a bill that cuts taxes and that would give Obama the credit.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#41470: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:08:51 PM

@Kostya: If he could have passed a bill like that he'd have done it. The Republicans won't allow tax cuts on the middle class without tax cuts on the rich too.

They already said that the last time Obama tried to split the Bush tax cuts.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#41471: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:09:50 PM

Well they can still claim credit too. Look it's not about giving the Democrats something to use against them it's about helping middle class families. The Republicans can claim credit for all I care, so long as a recession is averted.

[up]Well then they're just stupid and I look forward to all the ads saying they voted against a tax cut.

edited 20th Nov '12 2:10:39 PM by Kostya

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41472: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:11:59 PM

@Kostya: Much press coverage has been devoted to the self-perpetuated delusion that the GOP was operating under in the election. What should have been clear was that they fell victim to their own insistence on ignoring the facts in favor of ideology. When you spend so much time trying to convince voters that 2 + 2 = 5, you eventually start to believe it yourself, even if you objectively shouldn't.

It's a self-perpetuating cycle, as we've observed before. You feed your base lies and phony logic, and you train them to reject anything coming from other sources as "liberal lies". What inevitably happens is that your base starts to reject anyone or anything from their own side that tries to be objective. The leadership trains the base to believe in fairy dust, then the base promptly refuses to vote for anyone who doesn't believe in the fairy dust. Thus, you get leadership and voters who are living in a delusional state, ignoring the few sane voices among them because they've trained themselves to.

I don't think (and Krugman doesn't think) that the GOP is capable of breaking out of its delusions anymore. The question, then, is how violent will its death throes be.

edited 20th Nov '12 2:13:18 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#41473: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:16:17 PM

It still doesn't make sense to me. Some of the younger media people might truly believe these things but I would have thought O'reilly and Rove would realize they're liars.

Part of me wonders what would happen if O'reilly came on the air one day, after having an epiphany that maybe he's been an asshole and should fix that, and said that he's spent the last 10+ years lying to everybody watching his show. The reaction would be interesting.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41474: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:19:10 PM

I could be a cynic and note that O'Reilly wants to stay employed, and he's willing to be as mendacious as necessary to keep his job and his viewers. He argued vociferously for the conservative point of view in his debate with Jon Stewart, though, so I think it's rather more likely that he honestly believes what he's saying. Rove's breakdown on Fox News and afterwards proves to me that he's drinking the Kool-Aid — either that or he is fanatically devoted to extorting money from rich people.

edited 20th Nov '12 2:20:46 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#41475: Nov 20th 2012 at 2:20:29 PM

I'm obviously operating under the scenario that suddenly that doesn't matter to him anymore. He might also have a contract that forces them to keep him. Then again the contract probably says he has to stick to a certain narrative.


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