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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LMage Since: May, 2011
#41401: Nov 20th 2012 at 7:17:18 AM

@Starship

But a foreign power with little to no understanding of the actual day to day life, cultural moreas, and history of the society? Most Americans hear "Middle East" and think "Muslim" and most Americans think "Terrorism" not long after. That's the average extent of our knowledge in the middle east.

As I seem to recall we rebelled against distant powers dictating out lives: we of all people should understand that it is not our place or our right to tell others how to run their nation and lives.

edited 20th Nov '12 7:17:57 AM by LMage

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#41402: Nov 20th 2012 at 7:45:05 AM

[up]

This.

Its all well and good to want to end all the sectarian violence in the middle east, but how many americans know the first goddamn thing about the area or its various cultures?

edited 20th Nov '12 7:45:21 AM by Midgetsnowman

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#41403: Nov 20th 2012 at 7:59:47 AM

To paraphrase Lee Childs' protagonist, we have "lots of guys who can put a bullet between a target's eyes from 40 yards away at night, but not many guys who can tell a Shi'ite apart from a trip to the outhouse".

edited 20th Nov '12 8:00:35 AM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41404: Nov 20th 2012 at 8:22:11 AM

I agree with you guys that many people are like that. This site, by and large, is full of people far too intelligent to give in to such a simplistic and broadbrushed view. So no, nobody here is advocating for a continuation of American adventurism in that region.

By the same token, if some says "clean up the Middle East", especially in the context of that post, we can't automatically assume it's some jingoistic "kill 'dem A-rabs!" type.

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41405: Nov 20th 2012 at 8:36:04 AM

By and large, I believe that it is in the interests of the United States as well human civilization in general to support and promote self-determination on the part of people in all nations. However, I also believe that we have to recognize that it's not as simple as sending armies over to the Middle-East to "kill some A-rabs" until they wise up and get with the program. Converting people (whether to a religion or a form of government) at the point of a gun seldom works well.

We also have to acknowledge that "self-determination" for people in any given part of the world may not automatically take the form of a free-market democracy under the rule of law with Christian moral values. It's kind of hypocritical to tell people that they can have freedom to choose their own government and then get mad at them for choosing a form of government that we don't like.

I think that battling al-Qaeda was justified, on the basis that they committed an act of war against the United States. I think that liberating Afghanistan from the Taliban, and later Iraq from Saddam Hussein, were noble goals consistent with our notion of spreading democratic institutions. Unfortunately, the marketing (for lack of a better word) and execution of these missions were almost ridiculously short-sighted and simplistic, and Iraq in particular was a clusterfuck of mismanagement, botched expectations, and outright lies.

There is not a simple answer to the problems of the Arab world, but marching in with guns and bombs to "convert the heathens to democracy" is certainly one of the least effective solutions we could possibly be using.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#41406: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:03:44 AM

Another thing that needs doing is to just sit down and negotiate with Iran. They offered talks before, but members of the Bush Administration rejected them. If we want stability in that region (and a nice PR boost too), talks should not be avoided.

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#41407: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:07:28 AM

It's kind of hypocritical to tell people that they can have freedom to choose their own government and then get mad at them for choosing a form of government that we don't like.

Mr. Bush, do you support democracy in Palestine?

That aside, it's not really hypocritical to say that there are some choices that America won't tolerate and impose said intolerance by force of arms. Chiefly, right now, these choices are limited to supporting terror, because we really don't have the political will to tell Saudi Arabia to knock off the religious police and let their women drive. But we could probably do the latter if we hadn't bungled so badly under Bush (though personally I'd avoid antagonizing Saudi Arabia until we had a tested policy on the subject). Hell, we essentially had a free hand for world peace in the '90s; if Bush had been more competent and not beholden to Saudi interests, that could have continued till the present day.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41408: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:28:33 AM

Problem: Memetic culture has it that Ahmadinejad is a bit of a Smug Snake about it, treating the US much in the same way that Sir Humphrey treats the Minister; he'll say "yes, let's sit down and talk, no problem", and then stall and stall, all the while making a big show of acting completely deferential and obedient to those who'd like to think of themselves as his masters. In the third-world-VS-overbearing-superpower atmosphere of The War On Terror, this attitude of smiling politely in the face of the very real and immediate threat of total annihilation and saying "okay, let's talk" got him a lot of brownie points on the public-o-meter, and a bit of a Guile Hero image. I don't know about his public image right now, but I'd assume supporting Assad must have damaged it considerably in the public eye.

Anyway, what I'm saying is, talking is always good; find if there's something you have that the other party wants to exchange for, strike a deal. Just... don't get stalled, and also don't break the talk prematurely by accusing the other side of stalling without sufficient grounds.

I'm going to go to sleep now. It's been a long day. At least the thread didn't run amok while I was away like it did last time.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#41409: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:30:28 AM

Or call the other side "evil".

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41410: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:36:49 AM

I think calling each other Evil is okay, as long as it is understood that both sides don't share the same moral standards.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#41411: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:37:35 AM

"...he'll say "yes, let's sit down and talk, no problem", and then stall and stall, all the while making a big show of acting completely deferential and obedient..."

Sounds like US budget negotiations...

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41412: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:43:43 AM

[up] Clever [tup].

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41413: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:49:23 AM

Wow, just when you thought that Paul Krugman couldn't get any more topical to the conversation we were having... well, yesterday... here he is about the "New Republicans". In so many words, he is accusing the Republican Party of making a sham of "soul searching" in the wake of the election: they have become the "plutocrat-preacher" party and are no longer capable of emerging from that mold in recognizable form.

Second, today’s Republican party is an alliance between the plutocrats and the preachers, plus some opportunists along for the ride — full stop. The whole party is about low taxes at the top (and low benefits for the rest), plus conservative social values and putting religion in the schools; it has no other reason for being. [...]

Finally, it’s true that there are some Republican intellectuals and pundits who seem to be truly open-minded about both economic and social issues. But I worded that carefully: they “seem to be” open-minded; indeed, they’re professional seemers. When it matters, they can always be counted on — after making a big show of stroking their chins and agonizing — to follow the party line, and reject anything that doesn’t go along with the preacher-plutocrat agenda. If they don’t deliver when it counts, they are excommunicated; see Frum, David.

Anyone who imagines that there is any real soul-searching going on is deluding himself or herself.

Starship, this goes along with what we were talking about earlier: your values are not the values of the modern Republican Party. Your values are much more in line with the modern Democrats, and I think it's only cultural conditioning that makes you so insistent that you must be a Republican, because in reality, mainstream Democrats are conservatives.

edited 20th Nov '12 9:53:16 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#41414: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:50:32 AM

No no, I meant like this: "We don't negotiate with evil, we defeat it."

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41415: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:53:05 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up]

Its important to remember that Ahmadinejad is not the head honcho in Iran

edited 20th Nov '12 9:55:22 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41416: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:55:48 AM

Wait, did Paul Freakin' Krugman called me a Rockefeller Republican??

Edit: Um, is there any data to back up his assertions that the Republican party is not really in retool mode?

It was an honor
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41417: Nov 20th 2012 at 9:55:50 AM

[up][up][up]To always fight the darkness, to never let evil pass unchallenged - that is not heroism, but simple pride. Plus, if these United States of America had an inevitable compulsion to defeat evil, they'd be constantly shooting the shit out of their left hand with their right hand, and that would hardly be productive, except for the fact that it would cause much merriment and joy to resentful onlookers. Perhaps if they keep it up for long enough, the merriment will turn into pity, and they'll be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt? Most likely, it would simply shift their feelings from fear to contempt, and they may attempt to follow the tempttation to Kick Them While They Are Down.

I can't help but notice that some amusing Hetalia strips could be drawn from such a scenario...

[up][up]No, he's just the Face Of The Band.

edited 20th Nov '12 10:04:15 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41418: Nov 20th 2012 at 10:02:13 AM

Krugman is really on a roll; now he's talking about How We Know the Earth Is Old. Really, it's simple.

@Starship: Hard data? The demographics of the party. The people who nominated Romney and strongly considered nominating Santorum, Gingrich, Cain, Perry, and freaking Donald Trump. I admit that it's hard to form absolute conclusions from this, but I will say that Krugman has a better track record of predicting the actions of the Republican Party than many political analysts.

The fundamental problem is that the voter base that supports the GOP and the big money that funds it will not allow any agenda to be advanced that does not include (a) lower taxes on the rich, (b) cutting social programs, (c) putting religion in schools. Without those fundamental principles, there is no GOP. They have molded themselves to appeal to this group of voters and alienated all the others; they are therefore stuck with them because those voters now have a deathgrip on the soul of the party.

edited 20th Nov '12 10:04:30 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41419: Nov 20th 2012 at 10:04:25 AM

Hillary Clinton sent to Mideast to try to end conflict

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41420: Nov 20th 2012 at 10:06:24 AM

[up][up]What's wrong with Sunday School? With all the multiple denominations present, I hardly think it's possible to give a unified "catechism", or heck, even a minimally consensual one besides the barest bones of the Nicean Creed.

[up]Oh fuck, now everyone is screwed.

edited 20th Nov '12 10:07:19 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41421: Nov 20th 2012 at 10:08:05 AM

[up]

I think he meant putting religion in public schools.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#41422: Nov 20th 2012 at 10:11:44 AM

Just dont forget what Solzhenitsyn said “If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

Anyway, got to qualify what Krugman said re Rep party. there may in fact be some movement on certain specific issues, but the core of the RP's positions isnt going to change, nor will it have to. The basis of RP appeal is conservative populism- people who just do not like the government telling them what to do (like, for example, giving money to poor minorities). That feeling ain't going anywhere, and thus the RP will continue to have widespread support irregardless of what stand they take on immigration.

edited 20th Nov '12 10:13:50 AM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41423: Nov 20th 2012 at 10:13:29 AM

[up][up]I know. And I meant "why don't they let Public Schools teach what they have to, and then teach the kids religion on Sunday in their own time and at their own religious group?" If I were a Prostestant, I assume wouldn't like a Catholic priest to teach my children about Christianity. I'd rather send them to sunday school in my denomination of preference. Right?

[up]Holy shit Marquis that was beautiful and I shall remember it for the rest of my life.

edited 20th Nov '12 10:15:17 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#41424: Nov 20th 2012 at 10:14:43 AM

No, you would prefer that your public school teach Protestant doctrine. That's why the religious right wont win this one, except in selected backcountry locations...

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41425: Nov 20th 2012 at 10:16:16 AM

What's the point of fighting a battle you know you can't possibly win?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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