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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#41376: Nov 19th 2012 at 11:46:06 PM

The USSR still existed as an ideology to stand against, and also by that time it was an expected and accepted part of a job's benefits package that unions fought for. Got entrenched, so people just sort of didn't complain about it so long as employers weren't seen to be cheating them on the issue.

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#41377: Nov 19th 2012 at 11:52:13 PM

Good health plans from the 1950s - 1990s were expected from a job. Today, they're still expected if you've worked there for more than a year and it's not Walmart. My boyfriend had a minimum wage job at Target and had a comprehensive health plan after working there for six months. It's really not that bad of a system to have employers pay for health insurance.

The part that isn't good about the system is the amount that insurance companies will pay out. Now with the ACA, that problem should hopefully be fixed until single-payer is inevitably passed in maybe 15 - 20 years.

edited 19th Nov '12 11:57:13 PM by Completion

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#41378: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:07:28 AM

Handle, since we moved on from that discussion some pages ago, I'll answer your response to me in PM if you want.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41379: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:11:28 AM

Obama seeks to expand U.S. influence in East Asia

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#41380: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:14:20 AM

I feel like it's awesome how he's trying to put diplomatic pressures on Cambodia and Burma to reform, I just hope this doesn't turn into a second middle east with a war there every couple of years.

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#41381: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:23:58 AM

He's not a neo-con, dude, he's just pragmatic. Don't paint him as some war hawk dickhead.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#41382: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:25:29 AM

I'm actually not that concerned about Obama doing this, since he's too practical to start wars there while we still haven't cleaned up the Middle East. I'm worried about whoever will come after him.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41383: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:27:19 AM

I don't mind neo-con foreign policies so long as there well thought out.

Like Libya.

edited 20th Nov '12 12:27:36 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#41384: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:32:29 AM

I have a problem with neo-con foreign policy, even when well handled, which is why I don't like Obama's foreign policy.

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#41385: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:39:19 AM

[up][up]That... wasn't really neo-con. If anything, it was the opposite, or at least a pragmatic middle-of-the-road type thing.

[up]Dude, he's not. Repeatedly saying it to yourself doesn't make it anymore true.

edited 20th Nov '12 12:40:46 AM by Ekuran

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41386: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:41:17 AM

middle-of-the-rad

That's not a real phrase. tongue

edited 20th Nov '12 12:41:37 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#41387: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:42:17 AM

Neoconservatism is a branch of American liberalism. Take social liberalism, centrist economic policies, and international interventionism and you have Neoconservatism.

It really isn't that bad on paper, just that Dick Cheney gave it a very bad name. Iraq was not the best place to showcase their foreign policy ideas of intervention during humanitarian crises. (Which are far to idealistic side of realism vs. idealism.)

Obama is not invading countries to overthrow dictators. He can do anything else that neoconservatives do, but unless he believes that forcibly intervening during perceived humanitarian crises is a good idea, he's not.

edited 20th Nov '12 12:57:05 AM by Completion

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#41388: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:42:35 AM

[up][up]Edited it before you made that post, so neh.tongue

edited 20th Nov '12 12:43:23 AM by Ekuran

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41389: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:44:51 AM

[up][up]

Obama is not invading countries to overthrow dictators.

Isn't that what we did in Libya?

edited 20th Nov '12 12:45:52 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#41390: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:49:30 AM

Isn't that what we did in Libya?
Not from what I remember. There was generally a desire for NATO back-up IIRC, and the US basically sent in some planes to suppress Qaddafi's forces to a limited degree, giving the rebel militias more even odds to beat the shit out of Qaddafi loyal forces.

I could be mistaken... but I swear that's what the US did.

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#41391: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:50:25 AM

Direct intervention.*

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#41392: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:50:43 AM

There was no invasion, and all we officially did was stop the Libyan government from blowing up their own people. A toppled dictator and an actual democracy rising from the ashes was just an awesome plus.

edited 20th Nov '12 12:51:19 AM by Ekuran

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41393: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:55:39 AM

cleaned up the Middle East

There's so many things wrong with this phrase I'm not even furious. I'm way past those torrents and into a calm lagoon of condescending indifference.

Please think about what you write before you write it. In this case, remember that there are people living there. Not scum, or pests, or creatures. People.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#41394: Nov 20th 2012 at 12:58:50 AM

@Ekuran: Neo-con foreign policy is, essentially, the idea that intervening in foreign countries militarily to spread democracy helps promote a safer America. Obama has been doing this with drone strikes and in Libya. However, he's been doing this in a much smarter way than Bush, as he has, so far, avoided troops on the ground invasions, and has had a very low number of American casualties. That doesn't make the drone strikes or the invasion of Libya any less military intervention in foreign countries to spread democracy in order to promote a safer America.

@Handle: I'm sorry for being unclear. I wasn't meaning to say that the people of the Middle East are somehow scum that need to be cleaned up. What I was saying was that the conflicts and issues in the Middle East that we caused mostly stay unresolved, as do the conflicts surrounding the Arab Spring, which, whether or not the effect is positive, is still a mess.

edited 20th Nov '12 1:01:23 AM by deathpigeon

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#41395: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:00:10 AM

[up][up]

But the Middle East need to be cleaned up.

There's sand, oil, and religious/ethnic/cultural wars everywhere. Its quite unsanitary.tongue

edited 20th Nov '12 1:00:50 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#41396: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:06:29 AM

Just realized I put center-right. Their economic views are center-left to center.

They were only part of the Republican party because they're foreign policy hawks. With the tea party being against all forms of welfare and social liberalism, though, they're pretty much lame ducks in their party now. I don't think there are very many now holding elected office. They're still extremely influential, though.

Yhe ideology on paper isn't that bad. Dick Cheney's just a dickhead. And their foreign policy is kind of iffy, but their hearts are, kind of, in the right place.

EDIT: Have I seriously spent the last half hour defending the ideas of neoconservatism? What the actual fuck.

edited 20th Nov '12 1:18:28 AM by Completion

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#41397: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:11:45 AM

[up][up][up] The drone strikes aren't really an attempt to spread democracy; they're just a continuation of America's pre-existing war with Al Quaeda and the Taliban.

As for Libya, what made that really different from Iraq or Afghanistan was that a revolution was already in progress; it was the Libyan people who decided they couldn't put up with Gaddafi anymore, not America coming in and making that decision for them.

edited 20th Nov '12 1:12:10 AM by RavenWilder

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#41398: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:12:53 AM

Let me put it jokingly. One doesn't just "clean" the Middle East. Clean is not the operating word. It's also completely inappropriate and full of unfortunate implications. How would you feel if someone said that those USA need to be cleaned from all their social and racial conflicts, all their crime, all their ideology conflicts, all their lobbies and big businesses and unions, and all those weird laws and quaint microlocalisms? Those USA are a mess. But it's not the sort of mess you can "clean". It's the sort of mess you deal with, day by day, because that's where you live, that's your world, and foreign forces coming all gung-ho with their cleaning products are very likely to make things worse, and then make you pay the bills.

[up]Or, you know, encouraging them to and them leaving them to their own fates like they did in 91.

edited 20th Nov '12 1:14:17 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#41399: Nov 20th 2012 at 1:37:37 AM

GOP Governors Unwittingly Move U.S. Toward Single Payer Health Care

Also, an interesting article about the changing tactic of the pro-same-sex marriage side. They had political scientists spend three years after Prop-8 passed with how to best counter the "Prince" ad which has been used in every state since 2008.

edited 20th Nov '12 6:32:31 AM by Completion

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41400: Nov 20th 2012 at 6:32:48 AM

How would you feel if someone said that those USA need to be cleaned from all their social and racial conflicts, all their crime, all their ideology conflicts, all their lobbies and big businesses and unions, and all those weird laws and quaint microlocalisms?

I'd say "Got a mop?"

I'm sorry Handle, but this is one of those cases, as happens often on this site, where someone draws conclusions from the words on the page and decides that their conclusions are the only possible answer.

I read "Clean up the Middle East" as "put an end to the depressingly engless cycle of violence and death."

It was an honor

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