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BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#41151: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:21:27 PM

[up][up]This is how you re-rail a thread.

edited 19th Nov '12 2:21:40 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#41152: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:23:31 PM

Oh my GOD you continue to miss the fucking point! You are at the North Pole, the point is in Antartica, that's how far away from the point you are.

We're not even saying things can't be criticized. We're saying that this continued denial of facts by politicians creates bad policies. Republicans aren't even criticizing, because that would require studying the issue and asking questions. They're just flat out in denial right now.

[up]Thank you.

edited 19th Nov '12 2:24:10 PM by AceofSpades

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41153: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:25:05 PM

Penn and Teller are performers, not scientists. I've disagreed with the points they make in some of their episodes, and in many cases they aren't even making a pretense of being scientific. Their episode on UFO enthusiasts was more about ridiculing them than any kind of factual analysis of their beliefs.

In any event, Trivialis, yes, we're talking about how belief affects public policy. Climate change is not a religious issue, it's a scientific one. Economic policy is not a religious issue, it's a scientific one (yes, science can inform ethics and morality, but economics is at its heart a scientific discipline despite being infested by faith-based thinking).

edited 19th Nov '12 2:27:29 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#41154: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:27:46 PM

I mentioned Penn & Teller to show that denial of climate change theory (global warming) is not just for the "lunatics" trying to mess up oil, it's across the political spectrum. It's not just "another one of GOP lies". If you think denying climate change is just wrong, then you have to say the same for Penn & Teller here.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41155: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:27:55 PM

If someone asked me I'd answer that according to carbon-dating the Earth is less than 5 billion years old. I'd have no compunction saying that I question the efficacy of radiometric dating.

I don't know, perhaps it is too much to ask for both. You would have to put a shit ton of effort into surveillance and documentation to make sure not a cent of that aid is misused...

That would be pretty horrific. And that's why nobody would suggest such a facistic thing. smile

It was an honor
RTaco Since: Jul, 2009
#41156: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:29:49 PM

I would say Penn & Teller are just as wrong. Climate change is almost as established as evolution by now, and the idea that there's any doubt among the experts is just a rumor that won't die.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#41157: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:31:05 PM

The point is that Republican lawmakers have no business deciding product safety, weather forecasting funding, road safety, etc. if they're basically arguing psuedo-science that stands on the same grounds as Humorism, Miasmaism, Dianetics, Astrology, Dowsing, and Korean Fan Death are legitimate theories.

0_0

Now knock off the Post-Modernist "Can't Prove That" Bill O'Reilly argument. It's annoying as shit.

edited 19th Nov '12 2:32:23 PM by PotatoesRock

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41158: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:31:31 PM

There are a few climate change deniers among liberals. Not many, and we try to keep them in the attic along with the embarrassing photos of us as babies.

The science is the science. Denying it makes you look like an ideologue or a fool.

[down] I don't know any personally, I just assume they exist as part of normal statistical deviation. Are Penn & Teller liberals or just douchebags who got a TV show?

edited 19th Nov '12 2:32:52 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#41159: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:31:31 PM

[up][up][up]You do realize they don't believe in either right?

[up]Can you name any specifically? I've seen ones that don't care about the environment as much as others but I've never heard of any that flat out say it's not true.

edited 19th Nov '12 2:32:07 PM by Kostya

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41160: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:33:37 PM

I think it's interesting you mention evolution and climate change.

A lot of people, people who tend to be liberals (not all, just some), say "See we have PROOF." Um, not quite.

Much like the abortion and gay debates, people hold up some observances, and then they tout the conclusions they draw from those observances as fact, essentially conflating the two.

As Ace put it so well, some people question those conclusions drawn. Doesn't make them "stupid" or "liars".

Now knock off the Post-Modernist "Can't Prove That" Bill O'Reilly argument. It's annoying as shit.

Other than your annoyance, is there a reason this argument should be tabled?

edited 19th Nov '12 2:35:14 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#41161: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:35:16 PM

Penn & Teller simultaneously criticized the Bible and global warming, you know...
Yeah, and they were laughably wrong in that episode, which was a whole lot of fitting the evidence to the desired conclusion IIRC.

There's a reason it's called the House Sciences Committee, not the House Post-Modernist What Reality Might Be Committee, because it is science that determines what gets Pentagon funding, how FEMA responds to cataclysmic weather events, how national health organizations prepare for epidemics, how intelligence and national security services prepare their computer systems and human personell against attack, what federal regulations apply to power plants, and a gazillion other things that rely on decision making informed ONLY by what we we can observe and NEVER by what we assume. Historically, the U.S. Government has been ill-served when Post-Modernist What Reality Might Be studies supplanted science in this role.

If someone asked me I'd answer that according to carbon-dating the Earth is less than 5 billion years old. I'd have no compunction saying that I question the efficacy of radiometric dating.
Permission to edify over PM, Captain.

EDIT: Wow. First time I've been so ninja'd, and yet, my post ends up arriving right after a post to which it could serve as a suitable reply.

A lot of people, people who tend to be liberals (not all, just some), say "See we have PROOF." Um, not quite.
When it comes to climate change, evolution, and the current astronomical and geological consensus on the formation of our star system and the planets within, yes, we have proof, and no, the alternatives don't. Again, requesting permission to edify over PM, Captain.

edited 19th Nov '12 2:37:53 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#41162: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:35:43 PM

Starship, once again you confuse the normal process of scientific inquiry with conventional concepts of uncertainty.

If I told you there's a 99.5 percent chance that your house would sink into the ground tomorrow, would you bring up that 0.5 percent uncertainty factor as proof that the theory is contested and therefore unreliable? Or would you pack up and leave?

edited 19th Nov '12 2:36:15 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#41163: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:36:37 PM

[up][up][up]The facts are pointing towards them at this point. If new data says we're wrong we'll change our minds but for now we are going to operate under the assumption we're right because that's what everything points towards.

edited 19th Nov '12 2:36:48 PM by Kostya

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#41164: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:36:56 PM

Fighteer

In any event, Trivialis, yes, we're talking about how belief affects public policy. Climate change is not a religious issue, it's a scientific one. Economic policy is not a religious issue, it's a scientific one (yes, science can inform ethics and morality, but economics is at its heart a scientific discipline despite being infested by faith-based thinking).

I agree with you to some extent. If a scientific policy for climate/economy is directly applicable to solve a problem, it's no brainer to use it.

@Potatoes Rock

I don't know why you call me a postmodernist. I agree that there is an absolute truth and an objective reality. It doesn't mean that people don't disagree on what they think is that truth and reality.

@R Taco: Ok, fair enough.

edited 19th Nov '12 2:48:22 PM by Trivialis

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41165: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:38:47 PM

Permission granted, Commander Taoist.

You know Fighteer, you, Shima, and others constantly tell me that. Not so. If you said there was a 95.5% chance my house would sink into the ground, I wouldn't care about the 0.5% percent chance you're wrong.

I care about what methods you're using to ascertain that my house is in danger. If I trust the methods and yourself, then I'd go along with it if it was only 68% accuracy. If your methods basically involve saying "Well, everyone else agrees with it," then yes, I'm going to question it.

When it comes to climate change, evolution, and the current astronomical and geological consensus on the formation of our star system and the planets within, yes, we have proof, and no, the alternatives don't.

Wrong. You mean, "all the evidence we have says this is so. The people who disagree with us don't have any counter evidence." Not the same thing. But thanks for demonstrating what I was talking about.tongue

edited 19th Nov '12 2:41:20 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#41166: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:40:25 PM

@max: Astro physics is pretty easy to understand and if you can wrap your head around speed of light and measuring distance on that scale you can get a pretty good idea of just how old some of the older galaxies are. Sure it`s possible that God created an entire universe several billion years ago and just got around to us 6,000 years ago but that makes many more assumptions then our current model of how the earth got here.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#41167: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:40:50 PM

according to carbon-dating the Earth is less than 5 billion years old.

Carbon dating is not used to age anything that's billions of years old. Radiometric dating is used for that, but Carbon (or at least Carbon-14) are not used for that purpose. Carbon-14 is only used to measure things up to 60 000 years or so. Its half-life is too short to use it for anything older than that.

Also, the Earth is about 4½ billion years old, so "less than 5 billion" is correct but it's not very precise. A margin of "give or time 500 million years" means that you could ignore almost the entire history of multicellular life on Earth when stating the age of the Earth. Sure, complex life isn't very old, but it's not that young, either.

(Not intending to launch a derail; just dropping a little bit of info.)

edited 19th Nov '12 2:41:21 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#41168: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:42:11 PM

Ah, thanks Best Of. I honestly didn't know that.

Astro physics is pretty easy to understand and if you can wrap your head around speed of light and measuring distance on that scale you can get a pretty good idea of just how old some of the older galaxies are. Sure it`s possible that God created an entire universe several billion years ago and just got around to us 6, 000 years ago but that makes many more assumptions then our current model of how the earth got here.

Exactly. Heck maybe other galaxies are the old 'drafts' of ours [lol]. Or you know what, maybe we're wrong and Bible is wrong. Or maybe we're understanding it wrong.

I'm just saying that short of meeting a 5 billion year old person who was there and can tell me how it all went down, then really we're just guessing, even if the guesses are spot on correct.

edited 19th Nov '12 2:44:47 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#41169: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:43:35 PM

I don't want to continue a derail but I should point out that Penn later acknowledged that global warming is real, actually. There was a point in time where he wasn't sure where he stood on the issue, but has since realized the data didn't support his position.

That's, you know, a big part of science: knowing when you're wrong and learning from it.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41170: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:44:11 PM

There's no such thing as probability of a theory being right. Either it is right, or it isn't right. What we mean when we say we're 99.5% certain of something isn't that there's that much chance of it being right, it's that tests and evidence have suggested that If the theory weren't right, we'd see different evidence, barring a series of random events that are .5% likely.

[up] Oh hey, good for him. [tup]

edited 19th Nov '12 2:44:37 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#41171: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:44:53 PM

Radical Taoist

When it comes to climate change, evolution, and the current astronomical and geological consensus on the formation of our star system and the planets within, yes, we have proof, and no, the alternatives don't. Again, requesting permission to edify over PM, Captain.

As a student of mathematics (queen of science tongue), I have to caution you about the notion of proof.

A proof is only a proof when you accept the assumptions behind it. The argument may say that if the universe started with a small singularity, then it evolved into the current universe with these "specifications" Now, you believe that God did not use the singularity. Can you accept the proof?

That's the thing. A scientific theory starts with some principles, and is valid only if those principles are true. Reality might not be according to those principles, though, but modeling is still useful. That's why I can accept this post by Fighteer but not the subsequent post by pagad.

edited 19th Nov '12 3:29:33 PM by Trivialis

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#41172: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:44:54 PM

Other than your annoyance, is there a reason this argument should be tabled?

Because he's Devil's Advocating for the "House Post-Modernist What Reality Might Be Committee" view Marco Rubio and other Republicans hold, and I can't tolerate wishy-washy bullshit trying to justify a bunch of quacks and snake oil salesmen having the right to decide Disaster Relief, Medical Funding for Serious Disease, Federal Funding for Power Plants. Etc.

I don't care about absolute truth or objective reality. The point is the GOP Lawmakers are a bunch of liars at best and at worst, uneducated loons. Neither should be allowed to decide some of the most fucking important funding in the country.

No wonder the rest of the world thinks America's a joke.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#41173: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:46:38 PM

"I don't care about absolute truth or objective reality."

No offense, but you just called me a postmodernist, and that statement up there is postmodernist.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41174: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:47:07 PM

NOTE: Proof in the context of science as used here isn't the same thing as a mathematical proof and insisting on your terminology is just semantics and sophistry (the new Tabletop Roleplaying Game)

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#41175: Nov 19th 2012 at 2:48:00 PM

I know, but proof is a construct using logical validity, and it's used in both philosophy and mathematics. That's why I'm bringing it up.


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