TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#40876: Nov 18th 2012 at 6:55:29 AM

[up][up]

The message of the article is not "Southerners can be liberals". The message of the article is: The Democrat/Republican divide is not a "North/South" divide as much as it is a "urban/rural" divide. Thus, Republican successes in the South have less to do with some kind of semi-fictional "Guns, Rednecks and Jesus" mentality on the part of Southerners as it does with the demographics of the region. The writer is not saying "Southerners can be liberals", the writer is saying, "please can Northern liberals stop stereotyping all Southerners as yearning for a return to the C.S.A."

From the article: "To my chagrin, liberals living outside the South deny our existence, lump us all together by using rhetoric about the Confederacy and heap pity on us with a little condescension thrown in for good measure. They also seem to be unaware of nuance.

The fact is, liberals everywhere live among people who don’t share their views. Are you listening Wisconsin, Arizona, Indiana and, yes, New York? Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond are long dead. Michele Bachmann, Scott Walker and other Tea Party darlings are alive and well, and they aren’t all whistling Dixie.

If the Democrats are going to be a true majority party, they will need to build a coalition in all 50 states. So rather than see the South as a lost cause (pun intended), the Democratic Party and liberals north and west of us should put a lid on their regional biases and encourage the change that is possible here."

The point of the article is to get Northern liberals to stop stereotyping, not point out the bleedin' obvious.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40877: Nov 18th 2012 at 7:43:35 AM

Austerity: In Europe (well in Britain), we're doing it thoroughly — yep, we're chasing down Starbucks, Amazon and Google for corporate tax avoidance and starting to form action at the International Level.

Mr Cable told Andrew Marr: "The best off in society have got to contribute more, and that includes companies." He acknowledged that smaller companies, many of which face competitive pressures from the major firms, will be angered by the situation.

"There's nothing more galling to small and medium-sized enterprises when they are paying (tax), and others are dodging it," Mr Cable said. "Our own tax authorities have got to be very tough on things like royalty payments, which is where a lot of the subterfuge takes place."

However, he said that finding a solution was difficult, especially as the UK had to make itself attractive to inward investors. "The big question is whether you can get wider (international) agreement," he said. As companies are using favourable tax jurisdictions overseas there needs to "a combination of action at the international level as well as beef up our own capacity to deal with it".

Mr Cable said: "It is quite difficult to drill down to what the problems are. Starbucks claims they are actually making losses in the UK. I don't know whether they are not but you would need some pretty intensive investigation by the Inland Revenue to establish what exactly is going on, whether their transfer prices and their royalties are being fiddled or not." All the companies under fire over the amount of corporation tax paid said that they operated within the tax rules and regulations and have done nothing wrong.

Now, how could this relate to the US?

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#40878: Nov 18th 2012 at 8:17:31 AM

Quite directly. Until we get international agreement to close down all the avenues by which companies can legally dodge taxes, they will continue to stand there telling everyone that they are "obeying the law" whilst dodging taxes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40879: Nov 18th 2012 at 8:28:03 AM

...and of course, stopping tax avoidance is part of European-style Austerity (as well as raising taxes and cutting Government). Increasing income to pay down the Debt is everything.

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#40880: Nov 18th 2012 at 8:35:48 AM

While it ought to be axiomatic that addressing the economic depression is the first objective of governments, tax avoidance is a serious drain on revenues that must get dealt with to have a stable system going forward.

edited 18th Nov '12 8:36:08 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#40881: Nov 18th 2012 at 8:52:10 AM

Isn't the problem exacerbated by companies having a legal obligation to maximise profit for their shareholders, forcing them to use loopholes even if they don't want to? I heard/read somewhere that was a problem faced by more ethically-minded companies.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#40882: Nov 18th 2012 at 9:01:40 AM

Yes, that is a serious problem. It's a simple fact that businesses' self-interest conflicts with the self-interest of society as a whole.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40883: Nov 18th 2012 at 9:52:19 AM

But what about "not a zero-sum game" and "create wealth" and so on?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#40884: Nov 18th 2012 at 9:57:40 AM

[up]You shouldn't have a war between decent, social ethics and legal responsibilities. tongue The moment you do, the Law is Being an Ass™.

Also, by having some businesses in a position to out-compete small and medium businesses simply down to the fact they're large enough to play international shell games with their money... is hardly competitive on an equal footing. tongue They don't need the incentive to turn around and say "well, if we don't, we get sued by our shareholders". tongue

edited 18th Nov '12 9:59:03 AM by Euodiachloris

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40885: Nov 18th 2012 at 9:58:43 AM

^^^

So should one Legislate the self-interest out of business*

, and thus change Corporate Culture?

edited 18th Nov '12 9:59:31 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40886: Nov 18th 2012 at 10:23:51 AM

For some reason, people think "Don't blame the corporation, it's doing what it's supposed to" is an argument AGAINST legislating corporations.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40887: Nov 18th 2012 at 10:37:32 AM

I'm not blaming the corporation, I'm blaming the laws and people that allow it to act that way. I have no problem with megacorps existing they just need to follow rules and be decent to their workers.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#40888: Nov 18th 2012 at 10:39:13 AM

I've always interpreted it as "They can't do it themselves, and shouldn't be expected to, which means someone needs to regulate them for them."

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40889: Nov 18th 2012 at 10:57:21 AM

That's how I see things too.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40890: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:00:11 AM

But people see passing those laws as unfairly punishing corporations for "doing what they're supposed to."

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#40891: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:02:03 AM

I always say that if corporations are people, they are psychopaths. And we don't let psychopaths run around freely harming people because "They can't help it". We give them rules, and we monitor them and try to rehabilitate them, but we never actually trust them, that's foolish.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#40892: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:04:39 AM

[up]Also, if they are people... they should be responsible for their actions, or face the law.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#40893: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:05:00 AM

That's like the most retarded bass-ackward pseudo-Hobbesian stuff I've ever heard of. I mean...think about if we used that same logic on people. "Oh, he's a sociopath. We shouldn't punish him for acting according to his nature."

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#40895: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:19:02 AM

[up]Yarp. Amoungst other things. After all, if an individual can face court after littering on a neighbour's or public property... a corporation sure as hell shouldn't manage to evade.

Whatever an individual can be pulled up for, a corporation granted "personhood" should be, too.

edited 18th Nov '12 11:22:26 AM by Euodiachloris

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40896: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:22:58 AM

^

Whatever an individual can be pulled up for, a corporation granted "personhood" should be, too.

Speeding Tickets? [lol]*

edited 18th Nov '12 11:24:35 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Inhopelessguy Since: Apr, 2011
#40897: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:24:55 AM

... Companies are people?

Does this mean that mergers are marriages? Thus, if two technology companies merge in a state that doesn't legalise gay unions, the merger is illegal. tongue

Corporate responsibility should be a thing. If they don't want to do it, then government - as the protector of the people - should do it.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40898: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:27:14 AM

^

And Enforce it on Themselves, too.

Keep Rolling On
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40899: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:27:29 AM

[up][up]According to Citizens United they are. It basically said companies are entitled to donate as much money as possible during elections because they have the right to free speech or something.

edit: You seem to be forgetting that the government is evil and is constantly trying to stamp out the saintly big businesses.

edited 18th Nov '12 11:28:25 AM by Kostya

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40900: Nov 18th 2012 at 11:28:56 AM

We're British, remember? We think they're all useless and corrupt!

Keep Rolling On

Total posts: 417,856
Top