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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#40851: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:08:20 PM

@Barkey: Foreign aid is a drop in the bucket of discretionary spending. And a country operating entirely without debt issuance would be catastrophic for the investment industry. Debt is an incredibly useful tool for economies; it acts as a multiplier, allowing saved cash to be reutilized for other purposes. A debt-free economy would not only be much less vibrant than otherwise, but it would be more vulnerable, not less, to shocks.

@Trivialis and Joesolo: It would be useful to reduce the deficit, yes. After we get the economy back to full capacity, many means-tested expenditures like Medicaid, unemployment, welfare, etc., will be reduced, while tax revenues will increase, bringing us back to a surplus without the need for arbitrary spending cuts. Of course, we also need to raise taxes to increase revenues, preferably on the people who can most afford it.

You know, what happened when Clinton was in office.

edited 17th Nov '12 7:11:49 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#40852: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:10:04 PM

How does it go? If you owe the bank a hundred dollars, the bank owns you, if you owe the bank a billion dollars, you own the bank?

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#40853: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:17:12 PM

As I recall, there were less people employed under Clinton, in spite of the surplus.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40854: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:19:19 PM

Surpluses and deficits have little to do with overall employment. If the federal or state and local governments hire people, then that's more employment. If they fire people, that's less employment. If you're operating near full employment, then necessarily people who are hired by the government are people not working in the private sector-but that's only true if you're at full employment.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#40855: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:21:57 PM

Right. So-called "crowding out" effects only occur at full utilization. If the private sector is underutilized, then the government can/should pick up the slack, by hiring people directly (state aid) or engaging in stimulus to boost private demand, or both.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40856: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:34:47 PM

Let me put it this way.

Barkey: Construct a scenario that you think would be superior to the current scenario, and in what ways/why as it pertains to debt/spending/etc. Remember to itemize what specific values are in play. I mean, I can say "we'd have higher unemployment" but if employment isn't a value, then we're talking at cross purposes.

As an economist, we can't argue against "why debt is bad" without someone suggesting "why debt is bad."

edited 17th Nov '12 7:36:32 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#40857: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:39:01 PM

maybe we should amend the constitution and just bring clinton back...

I'm baaaaaaack
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40858: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:41:40 PM

Is wife is amazingly unpleasant, though, and has no business being a Democrat.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#40859: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:43:52 PM

[up][up] Remember, Clinton was the one who deregulated the banks. The recession was as much his fault as it was Bush's fault.

[up] ...What's that supposed to mean?

edited 17th Nov '12 7:44:12 PM by deathpigeon

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#40860: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:44:39 PM

^^

He also did some rather horrible things to the military in the pursuit of defense cuts.

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#40861: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:52:15 PM

true.

alright, so which previous president do you guys think would be best suited for this situation?

I'm baaaaaaack
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#40862: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:54:06 PM

I don't really think previous presidents matter, considering we're talking about looking for actual solutions to be implemented NOW. Which for all purposes means we should be discussing what we want Obama and our Congressional representatives to do.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40863: Nov 17th 2012 at 7:57:11 PM

@Death: It means Hillary Clinton can be charitably described as a Blue Dog democrat. She terrifies me. I never ever want her in office.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#40864: Nov 17th 2012 at 8:05:06 PM

[up][up] Alright then. carry on.

I'm baaaaaaack
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40865: Nov 17th 2012 at 8:17:20 PM

What did cause the recession, anyway?

Several Things:

  • First The Housing Market Bubble popped. This caused the values of securities tied to U.S. real estate pricing to plummet, damaging financial institutions globally.

  • Meanwhile due to a long trend of government deregulation had lead to over-inflated asset prices and the rapid growth of the "shadow banking system", basically leading to Banks giving out some pretty risky (and rather stupid) loans. When the Housing Market collapsed these banks were faced with massive loan losses, which in some cases lead to bankruptcy. This lead to a Credit Crunch that further hurt the economy's ability to recover

  • All of this damaged people's faith in the Stock Market, sending stocks plunging. It also caused consumer spending and international trade to decrease.

  • The 2003-2008 energy crisis and the lack of consumer spending lead to Automotive industries (especially America's Big Three) experiencing massive sales declines.

  • The War on Terror (and by extension the Iraq War) combined with the Bush Tax Cuts lead to the rapid growth of America's national debt and federal budget deficit. Fear of the both of these things further damaged consumer spending and handicapped the American government's ability to fight the recession.

  • And the European Union basically fell into a sovereign-debt crisis which was made worse by counter-efficient, reckless Austerity measures.

edited 17th Nov '12 9:08:42 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40866: Nov 17th 2012 at 10:37:16 PM

@Handle: Wasn't she the one that played a big role in the previous healthcare overhaul attempt?

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40867: Nov 17th 2012 at 10:39:43 PM

She's changed.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#40868: Nov 17th 2012 at 10:49:04 PM

You're going to have to give us some examples, because recently she's had a very good reputation. I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Also. She's held office. She's been holding office. And now she's retiring. So uh.... still don't know what you're talking about.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40869: Nov 17th 2012 at 11:28:52 PM

[up][up][up]

What Healtcare overhaul?

Do you mean Obamacare? Or State Children's Health Insurance Program?

edited 17th Nov '12 11:39:54 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#40870: Nov 18th 2012 at 12:10:05 AM

As First Lady, she pushed for a massive healthcare overhaul, which is where the framework for Obamacare came from, as it was the Republican answer to her demands.

darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#40871: Nov 18th 2012 at 12:15:29 AM

[up][up]He means the ill-fated attempt to create Universal Healthcare under the Clinton Administration, which gave us gems such as these ads that preyed on the public's fear and uncertainty.

[up]And what he said.

On a different note, there was an excellent editorial in the Times yesterday about the South. I would very much recommend that Northerners and West-Coasters who identify as liberal read it.

edited 18th Nov '12 12:26:36 AM by darksidevoid

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#40872: Nov 18th 2012 at 2:20:45 AM

Needed to be said.[up]

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TamH70 Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#40873: Nov 18th 2012 at 2:26:50 AM

Oh, well, I disagree. It was an example of a Southerner saying, yeah, we can be Liberals too, dammit. Which is '

  • a/ Obvious

and

  • b/ Goes without saying.

So why say it?

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40874: Nov 18th 2012 at 4:22:34 AM

She's held office. She's been holding office. And now she's retiring.

Yes, Hillary Clinton really put the vice in vice-president.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40875: Nov 18th 2012 at 6:54:03 AM

^^

Oh, well, I disagree. It was an example of a Southerner saying, yeah, we can be Liberals too, dammit. Which is:

a) Obvious

and

b) Goes without saying.

Not in America!

^

What sort of Vice, I wonder?

edited 18th Nov '12 6:55:28 AM by Greenmantle

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