Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
![]()
![]()
That basically sums up my stance on the matter.
edited 17th Nov '12 5:02:17 PM by DeviantBraeburn
Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016Sledgesaul: I'd say some do but they won't say it in public.
Anyway no, Ace doesn't want austerity. His/her point is that Obama needs to indicate he's not fucking around anymore. Since the fiscal cliff isn't an automatic crash he can let it start up and use this as a bargaining chip.
I still say they should pass a tax cut on the middle class prior to the cliff and then let it happen (they can save medicare and such later) but just driving over entirely might work too.
edit: Oh, you meant the middle class. Well yes and no. Many want entitlements cut because they feel everyone else is a leech that drains money from the government. Of course medicare and social security are entitlements so they're not exactly the smartest bunch.
edited 17th Nov '12 5:07:10 PM by Kostya
No, most people don't want those programs cut. Krugman's thinking is that, if Republicans hold firm on their refusal to raise taxes, we allow the sequester to happen rather than caving. This way, when the pain starts being felt, it'll be clear who is to blame. Again, that's the theory.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Whether or not he wants austerity or is only open to it is something we can't know for sure in my opinion. I think his basic thinking is that he needs to get the deficit under control somehow and he needs to at least try and appeal to the conservatives to get a semi-functioning country going. I think he's rather foolish in this aspect but Obama is a centrist so it makes sense.
@Joesolo; well, them too, but maybe the word I should have used was "rivals". Russia, China, India, Brazil, Corea... all those seem to be doing well for themselves.
Austerity measures are cool and all, but if you don't do them properly, if you're serving your cronies' interests rather than serving the country, you're just going to shoot yourself in the foot. Across the pond, tons of austerity programs are being implemented, and they're all as silly and badly done as each other, they don't make sense in view of their stated goal; all because they're written to accommodate and enrich certain groups of interest and political insiders. There has been scandal upon scandal. Austerity is a Schmuck Bait.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.I'm fairly sure that Obama does not believe in austerity but rather is trying to appeal to the Cult of Centrism. I hope, anyway. If he's a closet austerity hawk then we are in deep trouble.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"We've already gone over how pro-corporate Obama happens to be. If he takes these austerity measures and implements them, I have one thing up say to the President: "Why did we vote for you if you were going to utilize Romney's plan anyway, even after gaining all this political Capitol from the reelection?"
The cult of centrism sucks and, the way the GOP is functioning, the correct response is not bipartisanship, it's cutting them off completely and ignoring them as much as possible. Given the way he's carried himself until now, Obama has been effectively a moderate republican, and has achieved compromises that a conservative candidate would have been proud of, had they achieved them. Being a liberal isn't about, as Barkey would put it, "being a pussy".
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.China while it looks rosy, is facing a shit ton of structural/political/population/economic issues that they're going to end up running into a wall. So I don't expect China to take over the world.
Etc etc etc. While most of them are rising, it's not like we should expect a sudden Russo-Sino-Indo-Korean-Brazilian Master Race to appear.
Also I believe the tax cuts Obama is after are ones that would be good for encouraging businesses to run, but he's also said since the election that he's refusing a Grand Bargain that doesn't include the Rich paying more to help force the deficit down.
At this point I just feel like we should bring the deficit down as low as possible and then fucking ignore it. Have we forgotten what Cheney said? "Deficits don't matter!"
Okay, being serious it is a problem but let's focus on getting the economy stable first since it seems unlikely we can do both at once and doing the first will eventually solve the latter.
edited 17th Nov '12 5:20:53 PM by Kostya

Well, the reason Krugman seems to think he should let it pass is to one; Let Obama show he's not going to be pushed around endlessly by Republicans and two; Because it kicks in in pieces, it's not going to be an immediate crash and Congress will have time to reverse a lot of it once they start talking and doing their jobs. This is assuming this doesn't backfire by dint of the Republicans continuing to stonewall. But, if they do that, the Bush tax cuts still expire, and the Republicans lose support among the middle class who get hurt by the tax cuts on that demographic expiring.
Now, I see a lot of ways this could really hurt Obama and the Democrats in general, so I'm largely undecided. Still leaning towards letting this happen, though.