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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#40801: Nov 17th 2012 at 4:58:12 PM

Well, the reason Krugman seems to think he should let it pass is to one; Let Obama show he's not going to be pushed around endlessly by Republicans and two; Because it kicks in in pieces, it's not going to be an immediate crash and Congress will have time to reverse a lot of it once they start talking and doing their jobs. This is assuming this doesn't backfire by dint of the Republicans continuing to stonewall. But, if they do that, the Bush tax cuts still expire, and the Republicans lose support among the middle class who get hurt by the tax cuts on that demographic expiring.

Now, I see a lot of ways this could really hurt Obama and the Democrats in general, so I'm largely undecided. Still leaning towards letting this happen, though.

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#40803: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:00:57 PM

[up][up] Enemies in the "guys in holes that just want us screwed up" sense.

I'm baaaaaaack
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40804: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:01:43 PM

[up][up][up]

Now, I see a lot of ways this could really hurt Obama and the Democrats in general, so I'm largely undecided. Still leaning towards letting this happen, though.

That basically sums up my stance on the matter.

edited 17th Nov '12 5:02:17 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#40805: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:03:50 PM

People in the midfle class actually want Social Security and Medicare cut, or am I missing something?

edited 17th Nov '12 5:04:22 PM by Sledgesaul

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40806: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:05:56 PM

Sledgesaul: I'd say some do but they won't say it in public.

Anyway no, Ace doesn't want austerity. His/her point is that Obama needs to indicate he's not fucking around anymore. Since the fiscal cliff isn't an automatic crash he can let it start up and use this as a bargaining chip.

I still say they should pass a tax cut on the middle class prior to the cliff and then let it happen (they can save medicare and such later) but just driving over entirely might work too.

edit: Oh, you meant the middle class. Well yes and no. Many want entitlements cut because they feel everyone else is a leech that drains money from the government. Of course medicare and social security are entitlements so they're not exactly the smartest bunch.

edited 17th Nov '12 5:07:10 PM by Kostya

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#40807: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:06:10 PM

It's not that I want austerity, it's that Krugman made the case that this might be the only way to make Republicans back down from it. Or at least stop supporting it to the insane degree that they have been. I'm kind of tired of their shit, and maybe think that their bluff should be called.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#40808: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:06:22 PM

No, most people don't want those programs cut. Krugman's thinking is that, if Republicans hold firm on their refusal to raise taxes, we allow the sequester to happen rather than caving. This way, when the pain starts being felt, it'll be clear who is to blame. Again, that's the theory.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40809: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:08:19 PM

That's the theory, sure. But there's an entire noise machine that will gleefully spin it as Obama not giving a damn about the middle class and letting the economy tank again. He needs to tread really fucking carefully here if he wants to engage in a game of chicken.

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#40810: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:08:30 PM

The only way to get Republicans to stop calling for the Grand Bargain would be to have Obama call them out in it.

As it stands, he's not. In fact, he agreed with Romney on the issue of tax cuts and the social programs, so that makes me think he wants austerity as much as they do

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40811: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:11:32 PM

Whether or not he wants austerity or is only open to it is something we can't know for sure in my opinion. I think his basic thinking is that he needs to get the deficit under control somehow and he needs to at least try and appeal to the conservatives to get a semi-functioning country going. I think he's rather foolish in this aspect but Obama is a centrist so it makes sense.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40812: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:11:49 PM

@Joesolo; well, them too, but maybe the word I should have used was "rivals". Russia, China, India, Brazil, Corea... all those seem to be doing well for themselves.

Austerity measures are cool and all, but if you don't do them properly, if you're serving your cronies' interests rather than serving the country, you're just going to shoot yourself in the foot. Across the pond, tons of austerity programs are being implemented, and they're all as silly and badly done as each other, they don't make sense in view of their stated goal; all because they're written to accommodate and enrich certain groups of interest and political insiders. There has been scandal upon scandal. Austerity is a Schmuck Bait.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#40813: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:12:24 PM

He wants to please everyone, but he'll end up pleasing no one.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#40814: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:12:27 PM

I'm fairly sure that Obama does not believe in austerity but rather is trying to appeal to the Cult of Centrism. I hope, anyway. If he's a closet austerity hawk then we are in deep trouble.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40815: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:14:54 PM

Fighteer: I doubt he is. He's probably open to the idea but nothing in his first four years points to being like that in reality.

Part of me wonders how Fox News would react if he suddenly went ultra-austerity on us.

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#40816: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:16:51 PM

We've already gone over how pro-corporate Obama happens to be. If he takes these austerity measures and implements them, I have one thing up say to the President: "Why did we vote for you if you were going to utilize Romney's plan anyway, even after gaining all this political Capitol from the reelection?"

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40817: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:17:31 PM

The cult of centrism sucks and, the way the GOP is functioning, the correct response is not bipartisanship, it's cutting them off completely and ignoring them as much as possible. Given the way he's carried himself until now, Obama has been effectively a moderate republican, and has achieved compromises that a conservative candidate would have been proud of, had they achieved them. Being a liberal isn't about, as Barkey would put it, "being a pussy".

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#40818: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:17:47 PM

Russia, China, India, Brazil, Corea
Russia has its own issues and I'd hardly expect them to become a massive threat.

China while it looks rosy, is facing a shit ton of structural/political/population/economic issues that they're going to end up running into a wall. So I don't expect China to take over the world.

Etc etc etc. While most of them are rising, it's not like we should expect a sudden Russo-Sino-Indo-Korean-Brazilian Master Race to appear.

Also I believe the tax cuts Obama is after are ones that would be good for encouraging businesses to run, but he's also said since the election that he's refusing a Grand Bargain that doesn't include the Rich paying more to help force the deficit down.

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#40819: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:19:19 PM

He will not raise rates. He will only lower taxes.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40820: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:20:14 PM

At this point I just feel like we should bring the deficit down as low as possible and then fucking ignore it. Have we forgotten what Cheney said? "Deficits don't matter!"

Okay, being serious it is a problem but let's focus on getting the economy stable first since it seems unlikely we can do both at once and doing the first will eventually solve the latter.

edited 17th Nov '12 5:20:53 PM by Kostya

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#40821: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:21:50 PM

Personally, I think he's weakly for austerity. Not a full on austerity hawk, but still in favor of austerity.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40822: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:26:52 PM

If by austerity you mean cuts during deficit... I'm pretty sure that's inevitable in the current situation.

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#40823: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:28:15 PM

Austerity is cuts to social programs under the cloak of reducing the debt.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#40824: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:38:22 PM

Which in turn leads to cuts in revenue and the economy tanking which in turn raises the debt.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40825: Nov 17th 2012 at 5:40:18 PM

[up][up]

Not everyone thinks the debt is not a threat

And not everyone who advocates austerity disavows tax increases.

edited 17th Nov '12 5:40:33 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

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