TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#40526: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:20:21 PM

I'm in complete agreement with you Dr. Tentacles. We should always strive for the truth, whether it's convenient or not.

That also means that when those who deem themselves "above superstition" or "gut feelings" are presented with evidence that their "irrefutable proof" is neither irrefutable nor proof, that they are confronted and likewise called out.

It was an honor
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40527: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:31:54 PM

Don't think I didn't see what you did there, Maxima. Don't you think that for a moment.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40528: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:36:53 PM

@Max: [tup]

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40529: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:45:11 PM

While I agree with the message, I get the sense that it's sniping at us atheists, which is very much off-topic.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#40530: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:48:51 PM

Don't make me break out the teapots.

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#40532: Nov 15th 2012 at 1:28:37 PM

@triv: I wouldn't say it's impossible to come to the truth about everything, just really, really hard. You mention affirmative action and how you could find an objective way to report on it. You would fact check the claims made by those proposing changes/whatever. If several of their core arguments/ideals are able to be falsified and then found false you can ignore them. If none of their beliefs can be falsified you should just ignore them anyway. A belief that rests on nothing is useless.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#40533: Nov 15th 2012 at 1:28:51 PM
Blueeyedrat Since: Oct, 2010
#40534: Nov 15th 2012 at 1:37:00 PM

$4.5 billion from criminal charges (the deaths of 11 workers in the initial explosion). As the article says, their legal problems won't end there.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#40535: Nov 15th 2012 at 1:56:04 PM

The article also says it's the largest fine every paid for this kind of thing, far outstripping the previous record. I'm not sure if that should make me sad or happy.

Anyway, that's the criminal lawsuits. Civil lawsuits will probably keep going for years, but I think once you cop to criminal charges it becomes a bit easier for civil charges to be proven.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#40536: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:05:40 PM

Yeah though I suspect that BP will settle out of court rather than fight a losing and public battle.

Of course... its BP. They can absorb most of the losses coming their way in due time.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#40538: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:24:11 PM

23.9 Billion in 2011.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40539: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:24:55 PM

It varies. Given their net profit last year I think 7 billion would have been better but 4.5 is fair enough.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40540: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:35:39 PM

@triv: I wouldn't say it's impossible to come to the truth about everything, just really, really hard. You mention affirmative action and how you could find an objective way to report on it. You would fact check the claims made by those proposing changes/whatever. If several of their core arguments/ideals are able to be falsified and then found false you can ignore them. If none of their beliefs can be falsified you should just ignore them anyway. A belief that rests on nothing is useless.

Yes, you can do some fact checking. But there's a limit to how much of that is the job of the news and how much is deferred to academic research. The two are not equivalent.

It's one thing to verify the supreme court ruling by simply reading the ruling. It's another thing when you have a political claim on things like affirmative action. Is a news station supposed to look at that claim, and then look at the source materials, and then into the research itself, and figure out if that research is true or false? Are you doing "news" at that point? That takes over the job of the people who have done such research.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40541: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:47:51 PM

The news has the job to fact check everything that they present.

How about that?

And the limit is, empirically verifiable claims should be fact checked. If there's something particularly ludicrous, that may also be worth questioning, generally if you're in a face to face interview for instance.

edited 15th Nov '12 2:48:54 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40542: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:50:40 PM

Should something major, like 9/11 or the assassination of a President, be held back to be fact-checked first?

Keep Rolling On
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40543: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:51:48 PM

For something like that the media should report on the information available at the time. If they're later proven wrong then they have to correct their mistake and start reporting the correct version.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40544: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:54:58 PM

This is difference I'm highlighting.

You can fact check by linking to other sources of research that provide a basis for a claim - that's what Wikipedia does.

But digging into those research and trying to do peer review on them is not the job of news.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40545: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:56:41 PM

Let me put it this way. If a politician says their position is supported by an independent research agency, then the news is supposed to say "That agency is not independent." (assuming that it isn't, obviously)

edited 15th Nov '12 2:56:59 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40546: Nov 15th 2012 at 2:58:20 PM

They should also say if the agency actually said that. Romney used several studies to support his plans only for the authors to later come out and say that he took their words out of context or outright lied about what the study said.

edit: Basically if a politician says something the news can't just say "Candidate X said this about issue Y" in all cases. If X said something that is blatantly false or runs counter to what experts say then that fact should be made known to the public.

edited 15th Nov '12 3:00:19 PM by Kostya

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40547: Nov 15th 2012 at 3:07:35 PM

Trivialis, here's something for you. These posts do not talk about religion at all, and are politically neutral. They're simply about the rules of truth-checking. I'd be very happy if you could give at least one of them a cursory look. Thank you.

I think we've all agreed that media should at least check on the truth of statements that can easily be tested against facts. Things like "does policy Y do more good than X" are complicated, and call for a complicated report on the existing research, perhaps even a book compiling it. That, too, is journalism.

On the other hand, things like "what are the policies that Obama has promised to enact, and which of them he has enacted, and to what degree" are very easy to check. I think we've all agreed that these should be checked for.

There's a spectrum between "Was Obama really born in Hawaii?" and "Does God love America?". There's a point from which fact-checking becomes value-judging. But we do agree that, for the simple, plain facts, checks should be done, and inaccuracies should be pointed out?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40548: Nov 15th 2012 at 4:47:12 PM

620,000 tell Macy’s to 'dump' Donald Trump

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40549: Nov 15th 2012 at 4:54:01 PM

Hooray for that petition. Trump needs to STFU.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40550: Nov 15th 2012 at 4:56:13 PM

I just signed that but I doubt it will do much. Good thing I don't shop at Macy's.


Total posts: 417,856
Top