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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40426: Nov 14th 2012 at 11:54:06 PM

@Serocco

Pardon me, but I'm not sure what you're implying that. Can you clarify?

@Tomu

I get what you're saying; media shouldn't just report "X said that" a million times, and should do a little more in depth in journalism. At the same time you would agree that there's only so much media can do before they hit a brick wall of "people simply diverge in views at this point", and it's up to those people to pick up the responsibility at that point.

We might be on the same general picture, but we're just phrasing it differently, and perhaps having a policy difference on how much of it is appropriate.

But I'm saying this because I'm getting tired of "cult of centrism" accusations, which doesn't try to understand the mindset of independents, why they think that way. When it doesn't have that sentiment and only cares about being correct all the time, that's cult of partisanship.

edited 14th Nov '12 11:54:51 PM by Trivialis

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40427: Nov 14th 2012 at 11:54:51 PM

CNN is perfect Cult of Centrism territory, from what I understand.

I'd say I watch MSNBC but that's not even true, I can't stand anyone on that network but Maddow. I read Politifact for balance, though I tend to consider the truth-o-meter pretty worthless (their articles are good, but they have weird authority in regards to what truth value they put on things: if you just read the full article but ignore the meter, it's much better material)

Triv: Can you give a link to a post that's an accusation of Cult of Centrism that you think is bunk, so I can defend that particular accusation, at the very least?

edited 14th Nov '12 11:56:37 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40428: Nov 14th 2012 at 11:56:50 PM

The bias of neutrality from CNN.

I call it that because, in that article, a poll had a Romney lead with Independents by 22, and CNN still called it a tie.

edited 14th Nov '12 11:58:01 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#40429: Nov 14th 2012 at 11:57:15 PM

When reporting on a political issue with a political angle, why would remaining neutral in the reporting be a bad thing? If you are wanting to understand the issue, wouldn't it be best to have both sides of issue explained?

edited 14th Nov '12 11:59:33 PM by Completion

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#40430: Nov 14th 2012 at 11:58:02 PM

@Serocco:

That is what I call the bias of neutrality. When you're obsessed with not picking a side and giving straight news instead of checking the facts, you're a fucking robot.

The BBC is a robot then. It's legally required to not pick a side and check the facts, and yet, still gets plenty of criticism (some of it deserved, especially with its recent troubles).

Keep Rolling On
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40431: Nov 14th 2012 at 11:58:35 PM

If Obama won the election by 22 points, and you say "tie", that's neutrality.

If Obama won the election by 22 points, and you say "Obama decisive won", that's objectivity.

edited 15th Nov '12 12:00:03 AM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#40432: Nov 14th 2012 at 11:59:44 PM

Did you actually read that article or just the headline? The poll was oversampled with Democrats by +11, so they readjusted it and came with a tie. CNN's polling division was one of the more accurate organizations during the campaign.

[

edited 15th Nov '12 12:01:00 AM by Completion

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40433: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:00:48 AM

Whenever you are not being objective, that's bad.

When there is an objective fact, and you present something that is in contradiction to that objective fact, that's not being objective.

When someone says something that is questionable, it's the responsibility of journalists to hold the person's feet to the fire. Now, who gets their feet held to the fire when is indeed a different means of being unobjective, and that's where bias can set in. But the solution isn't to simply hold no one's feet to the fire. To do that is to set too easy, too useless a task for the news media.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40434: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:01:26 AM

Public Policy Polling had the most accurate of all polls regarding the election. CNN was one of the least accurate.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#40435: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:01:29 AM

[up] Least accurate? Yeah, right.

CNN was more accurate than PPP.

edited 15th Nov '12 12:04:37 AM by Completion

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40436: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:02:14 AM

That link from Serocco is weird. The post is from November 4th, but it mentions a post someone made on November 5th?

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40437: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:03:22 AM

@Tomu

My original post was in response to this. I understand the sentiments (GOP on average lies, etc.), but I had to step in to make a counterpoint.

Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#40438: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:05:57 AM

"Among telephone-based polling firms that conducted a significant number of state-by-state surveys, the best results came from CNN, Mellman and Grove Insight."

From Nate Silver of 538, the most accurate poll aggregator.

edited 15th Nov '12 12:07:17 AM by Completion

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40439: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:06:42 AM

Okay. And I've been arguing against it, because arguing that abandoning objectivity is just "being unbiased" is downright absurd.

I apologize, but yes-I am calling your position absurd. It is absurd to say that, in the pursuit of remaining unbiased, the news media should abandon objectivity. CNN, ABC, et all have become paranoid to accusations of bias, and have abandoned objectivity-this means that the consciousness of what people consider news has no mechanism for differentiating truth from fiction because it was the news media's job to do that in the first place, and they have abandoned that job.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40440: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:07:53 AM

Rasmussen and Gallup were among the least accurate pollsters regarding the eelction results. Public Policy Polling deemed most accurate.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#40441: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:08:35 AM

Which polls were they considering in the average bias? In terms of usable polls, meaning not national popular vote, PPP had an error of over 2.7 percent. CNN's, the fifth most accurate pollster by aggregation, an error of 1.9 percent.

Taking one poll and claiming that it makes an organization the most accurate is intellectual dishonest. It's like taking the least accurate poll from the most accurate organization and claiming that it makes them worthless.

edited 15th Nov '12 12:11:12 AM by Completion

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#40442: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:09:02 AM

I was summarizing an assertation by political scientists who are/have been considered completely non-Partisan by both sides. And their argument was essentially the GOP has moved 4 times to the right for every 1 time the Democrats move to the left, roughly.

And they were noting the reason this is continuing, due to their analysis, is that the major News sources are drawing false eqvuilance and letting the GOP get away with crazy.

tongue

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40443: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:11:03 AM

By accurate, they don't mean Nate Silver accurate. By accurate, they meant one of the closer "Yays" regarding the election results.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40444: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:11:15 AM

Let me do a bit of a presentation.

"Objectivity in news media is important for its own sake" is a values judgment. Thus, it's not objective.

"Objectivity in news media is important if we wish for the populace to be informed" is a factual statement; it may or may not be wrong, but that's what fact checking is for; since this is hard to verify, you'd be forgiven for not calling it out as BS.

"Objectivity in news media is at an all time high!" is a factual statement. It happens to be wrong, and with an agreed upon definition of objectivity, presenting this as anything other than wrong is not being objective.

It is technically true that saying someone said something is itself a factual statement. However, there are implications to the presentation of factual statements; a statement that goes uncontested is implied to be equally valid to other statements that go uncontested.

This is not what the News Should Be

edited 15th Nov '12 12:12:29 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40445: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:12:00 AM

[up]Can you clarify what you mean by "objectivity"? And how far should a media pursue that objectivity before they know they've done enough?

I don't think what I said is as strong as you put it. I agree that if CNN, NBC etc. are trying too hard to be between Democrats and Republicans, then maybe that's not right. That might be why you and many others here are frustrated with those news networks. But I'm proposing that they simply drop "trying too hard" and not become fully partisan, either.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#40446: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:13:07 AM

"There is no Truth in News, and no News in Truth." -Soviet-era proverb.

Journalism in the United States has never been about providing unbiased facts first and foremost. It's always been either about selling papers or advancing an agenda.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40447: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:13:12 AM

Everything has bias, because everyone is different. You can't remove that from the news media.

Fox News has a right-leaning bias. CNBC has a corporate-leaning bias. MSNBC has a roughly left-leaning bias. CNN has a neutrality bias.

The difference between those four and The Young Turks, for example, is that TYT admits they do opinion news, as in they give out the facts before they say their views on it.

edited 15th Nov '12 12:14:10 AM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40448: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:13:31 AM

But "Drop the Cult of Centrism" doesn't mean "BE A HYPER PARTISAN!" unless the only way to be objective is to be a hyper partisan.

In short, it sounds like you've been unknowingly arguing against a Straw Man.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40449: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:16:46 AM

I still don't know what you mean by objective. There's limits to objectivity when people inherently disagree.

This is not what the News Should Be

Here's my version of "this is not what the news should be", from a liberal site, the type we know and love.

Link

Remember this? Enough people in this thread condemned this article when we discussed it, for a good reason.

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40450: Nov 15th 2012 at 12:16:50 AM

This is an objective headline: "Obama Offers Cuts to Social Programs"

This is a neutral headline: "Obama Proposes Deductions To Entitlements"

This is a subjective headline: "Obama Won't Cut Social Programs"

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

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