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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#40376: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:08:46 PM

No idea, but it's got to be pretty horrendous since there's nowhere left without the presence of contractors skulking around.

Now look, there's good civil servants and contractors. And in some cases I approve(like hiring guys who retire to be instructors as civilians, that's a good reason to do it) but short of specialized skills the military lacks, we don't need them. Plus, our quality of service to our own and the outside world suffers as a result. Security is worse with civilian security guards and Do D police instead of actual MP's, chow is worse and the service sucks with civilian cooks, and who the fuck wants to deal with some file clerk when you want to swap out some equipment? They don't bend at all! The difference at my base, where we're 95 percent military, is that I can score swapping out a helmet if it's a certain dude I know in Supply, and that's just too valuable to get rid of. tongue

I've just never been satisfied with the quality of service that most of our contractors give us, and their lack of respect or accountability to people in uniform. We naturally don't like people who don't fall under the chain of command for us. Sure, they answer to some O-6 or some shit, but for daily duties and issues, they could all give a shit if you're some E-6 who's trying to fix an obvious problem with the way they do things.

I don't mind having them that much, but if someone has to go or be cut, I want troops to be the last priority, because they have the most to lose, and the Government is always talking the talk about returning our loyalty, only to promptly get rid of us like trash when we're too expensive for them.

edited 14th Nov '12 7:10:06 PM by Barkey

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40377: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:12:14 PM

@Kostya: Here you go. "...In August 2010, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that extending the tax cuts for the 2011-2020 time period would add $3.3 trillion to the national debt..." You can check the actual numbers here by clicking on "Expiring Tax Provisions" in the sidebar and adding up all the figures listed under "EGTRRA" and "JGTRRA" (which stand for "Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act" and "Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act" respectively).

edited 14th Nov '12 7:12:51 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40378: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:12:33 PM

[up][up]Yeah the troop count shouldn't really go down. I'm more concerned about bringing them home than kicking them out. The other things I mentioned like NASA and the FBI should stay though since they're either very cheap (relatively speaking) or are necessary for national security.

[up]Thank you.

edited 14th Nov '12 7:13:21 PM by Kostya

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40379: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:21:03 PM

So I shouldn't anticipate a US split, huh? Oh, BTW, here's a bunch of links I'm submitting for discussion

The GOP is the problem.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#40380: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:24:53 PM

I've seen the secessionist things. it's insanity, really.

theres even a couple of anti-secessionist petitions out there though. I got a kick out of this one.

[up] yea. the biggest one has barely 100,000 supporters. that'd be fairly small a minority in Wyoming, assuming none of them were repeat signers. you only need an email address to sign them.

edited 14th Nov '12 7:26:33 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40381: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:25:12 PM

The GOP is the problem.

You don't say?

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#40382: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:30:29 PM

Republicans would sooner cut VA benefits for disabled veterans before they would even look at whatever waste may be in the military budget.

They're not really entirely unwilling to make some cuts, they're just pathologically evil, that's all.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40383: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:35:13 PM

Ah, but my Google-Fu is strong tonight!

@Kostya and Barkley:

You guys will find this report interesting. Its by the "Commission on Wartime Contracting", a bipartisan group set up by Congress to study private military contracting. The full report is available for free.

From the report: "At least $31 billion, and possibly as much as $60 billion, has been lost to contract waste and fraud in America’s contingency operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Much more will turn into waste as attention to continuing operations wanes, as U.S. support for projects and programs in Iraq and Afghanistan declines, and as those efforts are revealed as unsustainable."

"...Spending on contracts and grants performed in Iraq and Afghanistan in support of operations in those countries is expected to exceed $206 billion through the end of fiscal year (FY) 2011..."

"...Because the heavy reliance on contractors has overwhelmed the government’s ability to conduct proper planning, management, and oversight of the contingency-contracting function, the Commission concludes that the government is over-reliant on contractors..."

Of course, it only looks at Iraq and Afghanistan, but my guess is that covers the lions share of private contracting anyway.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40384: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:37:51 PM

So if I'm reading this right removing contracting for just Iraq and Afghanistan will save us about 250 billion? There probably need to be more cuts but that seems like a good place to start.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40385: Nov 14th 2012 at 7:50:49 PM

@Kostya: Dont forget, however, that cutting those contracts throws several tens of thousands of people out of work- that's going to add to unemployment costs, at least in the short run. No free lunch, unfortunately.

@Handle: I'm with that middle article you linked to: the real problem isn't the GOP itself, but with that party's constituents- middle class and lower class whites who feel financially and culturally on the defensive, and are looking for a way to slow down or reverse social changes that they see as threatening to their interests. Those people have always been around, of course, but now they are better organized, and self-segregated more than any time in the past. Also, some very professional marketing firms using very effective opinion engineering techniques have gone to work on them. Which itself is a function of the effect that large sums of money are having on our political process (people with large sums of money to throw around naturally favoring the right-wing side of things).

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40386: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:22:29 PM

[up]Interesting. In countries where wealth and power is more evenly distributed, this wouldn't be such a problem; normal voters could gang up on millionaires any day and win. In the USA, however...

@War On Terror Budget Waste; no one conquers Afghanistan--unless you're the Mongols. The War On Terror was very efficiently thought, but I feel like the And Now What factor wasn't considered in enough detail. Hopefully, the next war the US starts and wins will have a better aftermath. Unless it's all a deliberate glorified fox hunt and a corrupt waste of taxpayer's money and brown person's life.

edited 14th Nov '12 8:24:23 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#40387: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:23:07 PM

A large group of the contractors in Afghanistan and Iraq don't live in America, not our problem. Those numbers include local populace contractors.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40388: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:25:35 PM

... They're hiring local mercenaries?

Isn't this like arming the Mujahedeen all over again? Why would they expect these guys to remain loyal?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#40389: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:32:05 PM

Not mercenaries. The majority of contractors are not security personnel. Most Security Contractors the department of state/defense hires are American, Canadian, or British.

Cooks, laundry people, porta-john cleaners, janitors, et cetera. Those are often locals.

However, the majority cost is in things like having civilians as armorers, maintaining mechanical and electrical systems, assisting in security, and also highly paid intelligence analysts who are civilians from private intelligence firms. Most of them were military or agents before they made the switch, and thus the CIA led the charge in being pretty pissed off about the contractor epidemic, as it has led to a revolving door policy of people leaving The Agency and going into the private sector ASAP. Other agencies and the Do D are experiencing the same problems. Honestly, when the demand goes down when the wars are done, I think we'll have a shot at fixing this issue.

edited 14th Nov '12 8:35:01 PM by Barkey

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40390: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:33:16 PM

Good catch Barkey. No, those arent necessarily merc's, if you read the report most of the contractors are delivering logistical and other non-security services. They're mostly local business people.

OK, not so much unemployment costs, but no point creating the next gen of AQ, is there?

Ninja'd

Anyway- wealth disparity has been slowly but steadily growing in our country since the 1980's. The Middle Class, has, however, improved in standard of living over that time (just not a well as the rich) so that leads to relatively little populist backlash (until the recent financial crash, that is).

edited 14th Nov '12 8:35:37 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Completion oldtimeytropey from Space Since: Apr, 2012
oldtimeytropey
#40391: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:34:58 PM

Even the neo-cons learned their lesson with local mercs.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40392: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:35:01 PM

Jindal rejects Romney’s ‘gifts’ theory

edited 14th Nov '12 8:35:48 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#40393: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:36:11 PM

It's more of a quality issue, all things aside. What they want is essentially prior military folks who are willing to come back and work on a semi-temp basis without having to worry about paying for life/medical insurance, or any sort of retirements or benefits. It's how they swell numbers without suddenly having to make good on the debts that they have with real soldiers.

Anyhow, I was talking to my dad on veterans day weekend, and he was telling me what LA has been like for him lately(he's LAPD).

He's not crazy, he's a guy who isn't really politically opinionated, is kind of an asshole, but an extreme realist. He said that violence in LA has, in his opinion, had a drastic increase in the last two or three years, and that it seems to mainly be on racial lines, but that the causes are economic. We talked about that for a bit, and he came out and said "Realistically, I think it'll be a miracle if we don't have some sort of rebellion or civil war within the next decade. I just don't see it not happening."

It's definitely had me thinking about it, trying to realistically gauge how bad things are or aren't. Who knows? He'll be retired in two years with 25, but I've got a ways to go still before I can retire from the Guard, so I'll be hip deep in that shit if it ever happens.

edited 14th Nov '12 8:41:37 PM by Barkey

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40394: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:40:47 PM

There's going to be a serious effort to make the Rep party more inclusive.

re Military contractors: Also, the idea was that they can be released from the rolls when unneeded more quickly and easily than regular duty folk.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#40395: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:49:01 PM

Anyways, that guy who got nabbed by the Secret Service after making threats on Facebook?

Yeah, he's just digging that hole deeper now.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#40396: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:54:16 PM

And this is why the Secret Service investigates these people. Because it makes far more sense to stop the assassination attempt now.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#40397: Nov 14th 2012 at 8:57:04 PM

Yeah, when the Secret Service asks if you're aware that threatening the President is a crime, you don't tell them that you don't care.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40398: Nov 14th 2012 at 9:03:20 PM

McCrystal lost his job because of that, as well.

Not that he threatened Obama, per say, but he was outright bashing the President, which is insubordination.

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#40399: Nov 14th 2012 at 9:45:57 PM

Oh, BTW, here's a bunch of links I'm submitting for discussion The GOP is the problem.
Well yeah, Republicans are essentially getting far more unstable reps in Congress. But they're also noting that it's not just the GOP is the problem:

It's that the country is completely desensitized to how fucking crazy the GOP's pundits, talking heads and reps are.

And the much much bigger problem is that ABC, NBC, CBS and CNN along with others who insist on being centrists are falling into the false equivalence "Cult of Centrism" trap, and basically are refusing to call the GOP reps for being utter fucking whack jobs and psychos in an attempt to avoid being accused of excess bias.

TLDR: The GOP Reps are causing problems and the media is refusing to call them on it to avoid bias/loss of entertainment.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#40400: Nov 14th 2012 at 10:01:52 PM

I'm going to object to the cult of centrism accusations I keep seeing.

I don't like biased news. I want news sites to report what's happening, not pass judgment on it. When a news media is trying to push an agenda through, even if I agree largely with that media source, I take it with a grain of salt (this is why I'm uncomfortable with Think Progress).

The viewers are supposed to be the ones making informed decisions with the given information, which includes interpreting it. It's not for the media to filter and censor information based on the quality in that sense; i.e. even if what X said is wrong info, "X said that" is not wrong info, and you shouldn't filter that or try to change it.


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