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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#40201: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:09:31 PM

I think he meant Democrats for the first position.

Also personally, I don't mind people holding guns as long as they're intelligent and responsible with them. (Though I am going to say I think the Militia bits of the Second Amendment makes gun ownership a right kind of hazy, but courts, w/e.)

I'm honestly more concerned about preventing more Auroras/Virginia Techs/Columbines that arguing the 2nd Amendment, and I wish groups like the NRA would try and help prevent more of them, rather than scare monger about Obama taking away guns magically through his Socialist Kenyan Muslim wizard powers.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#40202: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:11:16 PM

Barkey, please don't make me pull out the civil thump. We can remain courteous while disagreeing.

One issue with the gun control issue that I've come to realize through my time debating here is that it really is regional, unlike many other issues. In cities, guns are almost invariable involved in crime. In rural areas, they are not only part of the culture but have entirely valid uses for hunting and on-the-spot self defense.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40203: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:12:01 PM

[up][up][up]

Yes.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#40204: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:12:21 PM

(Starship sees the edge in the recent posts)

Starship: Uh-oh. I know! Some Sister Sledge will do the trick. (Whips out his iPod. A moment "We Are Family" starts to play. the thread is unimpressed) Eh, it was worth a try....

It was an honor
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#40205: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:14:13 PM

My biggest problem with Republicans is that they aren't fiscally responsible. Their economic policies don't mesh with how real world economies work. They can do Microeconomics and their stuff works on that level, but they fail terribly at Macroeconomics. I blame it on having far too many business men involved. Business men are terrible at running economies.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#40206: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:15:01 PM

[up]

This,.

Just because you know how to run a business doesnt mean you have ANY SKILL AT LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE OF ALL BUSINESSES.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#40207: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:19:02 PM

And the Democrats' fiscal policies are superior...how?

It was an honor
LMage Since: May, 2011
#40208: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:19:25 PM

It's ironic in it's own sense: Republicans are the first to bring out the old "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" maximum, but don't seem to realize that applies to all power, economic of government, and a free market would be equivalent to a classical tyranny.

HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#40209: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:19:38 PM

@Triv: They do overlap on social issues. The main differences tend to show up with issues that are outside the mainstream, such as legalizing prostitution. I happen to share the same stance on that, but I'd wager most liberals probably don't.

There's a lot of points where I sympathize with libertarians - I mean, normal ones, not the conspiratorial types who're stocking up on guns and waiting for civilization to crumble. My problem with them is that they're not so much anti-authoritarian as they are anti-government, and this seems like a very shortsighted way of looking at things if your goal is to protect people's rights.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40210: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:20:30 PM

With all due respect, my earlier post was intended to be playful and tongue and cheek, but it came off as making fun of Barkey more than I intended.

Anyway, here's the deal on gun control: Deal with it on an issue by issue basis. I don't think we need people with automatic weapons running around. On the other hand, I certainly don't think that hunters should be prohibited from owning the tools of their trade. So, again, deal with it on a case by case basis.

edited 13th Nov '12 5:22:01 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#40211: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:21:07 PM

and a free market would be equivalent to a classical tyranny.

Elaborate please.

It was an honor
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40212: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:22:35 PM

Power begets power.

edited 13th Nov '12 5:22:48 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#40213: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:24:45 PM

@Maxima: a perfectly functioning free market supposes a few things

1: All consumers are well-informed, have all necessary data to make the correct choice, and are not misled by ads or false data

2: Buyers are rational

3: Companies will not game the system via legislation favoring them.

edited 13th Nov '12 5:25:34 PM by Midgetsnowman

LMage Since: May, 2011
#40214: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:26:48 PM

@Starship

Think about it: if a handful of individuals amassed the overwhelming majority of the power, and had no checks or balances on them other then their own view and self-imposed morality, we would call that a tyranny in government.

Regulation of commerce and economics is necessary to give everyone the chance to reach their full potential and create a fair market that doesn't piss on the poor and middle class, just like the constitution is necessary to regulate government and insure it can piss on the little guy.

edited 13th Nov '12 5:28:31 PM by LMage

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40215: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:27:29 PM

Paul Ryan: Obama has no mandate on taxes

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#40216: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:28:13 PM

Hm, interesting. So in other words, a true Libertarian would want government oversight to help preserve his true free market economy.

Wait....idea

Tomu, Fighteer, is this what you guys keep talking about with all that Krugman, Keynes stuff??

It was an honor
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40217: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:28:55 PM

This is a more complex issue that has a number of approaches.

1.) There's the "here's why classical economics is wrong" approach, which midget elaborated on.

2.) There's the view of non-interventionism by government as it pertains to power dynamics, which is what I mentioned and

3.) There's the fact that, even if classical economics is right, then you have certain game theory-y prisoner's dilemma-y scenarios where everyone individually might think it'd be a good thing for everyone to not do something, but since it's individually in each individual's private interest to do that thing, everyone does it anyone. This is why you need environmental regulations for instance.

There's also the fact that governments provide certain services MUCH better than private industry.

Re: Keynes: For the most part, no. Keynes isn't really heavy into the labor economics side of things, and neither is Krugman. Not that he'd disagree, so much that he'd' say "well yeah that's pretty obvious, let's talk about the REAL issues-"

edited 13th Nov '12 5:29:58 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40218: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:30:30 PM

Why use guns when knives are better?

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40219: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:31:13 PM

Your avatar has a gun. Your argument is invalid!

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40220: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:32:10 PM

Jindal: End 'dumbed-down conservatism'

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal on Monday called on Republicans to “stop being the stupid party” and make a concerted effort to reach a broader swath of voters with an inclusive economic message that pre-empts efforts to caricature the GOP as the party of the rich.

Jindal ain't f*cking around!

[up]

So that's what that thing was.

edited 13th Nov '12 5:33:55 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#40221: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:33:27 PM

[up][up][up][up]

There's also the fact that governments provide certain services MUCH better than private industry

To elaborate further on that, things like healthcare, prisons, military, and police/fire departments are better off being in the hands of the government than private enterprise, simply because making a profit is at odds with the core reason behind having those services.

edited 13th Nov '12 5:33:42 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#40222: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:33:41 PM

Jindal for the mutherfuckin' WIN!

It was an honor
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40223: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:33:45 PM

Most of these people trying to change the party were all on board with the stupidity prior to the electoral defeat.

On the flip side, they may legitimately have decided to change because the electorate told them to, so it's not like that invalidates the message of "STOP BEING STUPID."

However, I do think the "Crowning moment of awesome!" element should be withheld here. These are people realizing they need to change course to win, not brave David's standing up to the Goliath that is GOP stupidity.

edited 13th Nov '12 5:34:37 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#40224: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:36:53 PM

[up]

There still better than the people who are all on board with the stupidity after the electoral defeat.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
#40225: Nov 13th 2012 at 5:38:42 PM

It's Pragmatic Villainy more than anything else.

However, we still have McConnell and Cantor holding office, and they're two of the furthest-right Republicans we have. They won't stop, and they might get into a power struggle with Baehner.

How far-right are they? Ronald Reagan didn't want to cut Social Security.

edited 13th Nov '12 5:42:22 PM by Serocco

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.

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