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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Proportional representation creates fracturing
nations.
Equal representation is the only way to preserve a Federation.
Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016![]()
I think that's what Kostya was suggesting. But as you can see from this very discussion, there's a lot of resistance to this idea. Partly because how we have things now is very ingrained, and has been stable enough that it's probably difficult to convince enough folks that the cons outweigh the pros.
There's also the fact that changing things means a shift in power, and it's always difficult to convince the ones in power that this will Not negatively affect them;
Deviant, I suggest you look at countries that have proportional representation. Like say, Germany. Which isn't fracturing, last I checked. Spain's issues would arise regardless of proportional representation of parties, because it's largely an economic issue. The Scotland issue is also independent of that form of government, and if it happens is going to be a peaceful separation, not a war that will destabilize that entire island. Seriously, you choose the question of Scottish independence as an example of a fracturing nation? Those guys aren't going to war any time soon when there's far less violent methods available to them.
edited 12th Nov '12 1:07:38 AM by AceofSpades
I don't really think that's giving the parties power? Besides, it's not like being nominated is what gets you the win. As demonstrated by the clusterfuck of Republicans this year, having the party support doesn't mean the voters want you. All these contenders and they chose Romney. Regardless, a candidate is just that; a candidate. And candidates are, in the end, subject to approval by voters. The Proportional representation method would not change this.
Look what I'm trying to say is that if you try a proportional system for a country as big an diverse as the US,it creates problems.
Not that it matters because to create this system you'd have to amend the constitution (good luck with that legal and political nightmare).
Can't we just hire independent commissions to do redistricting, it so much simpler.
The Conference's will make the Democrat Convention of 1968 seem orderly.
edited 12th Nov '12 1:10:19 AM by DeviantBraeburn
Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016Your examples are disingenuous. Scottish and Catalan hopes for independence are borne of nationalist sentiment, not proportional representation. I would actually argue that proportional representation is more likely to keep a nation together than split it apart, because everyone has a voice.
With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Quite a few comments in the in Scotland thread go like:
So I think representation might be a cause of Scotland's quest for independence.
But not all voices are equal.
Texas State Senator Wins Election After Death
But Kostya suggestion is PR at the State level. Its not like Senate will be abolished.
And a lot of people don't like the idea of giving political parties even more power than they have right now.
There are Open List PR ==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list
its reduce power of Party elites, but still maintain PR.
Yeah, but I'm tired and talking politics is like shifting gears (or something).
Iran VP: We will break Obama's 'grasping hands'
That does not sound positive.
Rick Perry keeps his presidential options open for 2016 after Romney defeat
I'm scared.
edited 12th Nov '12 1:56:33 AM by DeviantBraeburn
Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016That's basically my point, though. If Scotland had better representation in Westminster, nationalist sentiment would likely be much weaker.
With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.![]()
It's way more complicated than I think you realise. It has a National Assembly
that sees to "all stuff Scottish", but still has to answer to Westminster. Which, hardly has a proportional system in place that represents Scottish interests.
Add to that several centuries worth of dissatisfaction... and stir.
You think the American South has a bit of a grudge with the North? Scottish-English issues are a variously bubbling stew a good millennium old. Yet, no current war, even if we're in a phase of political border-disputing sabre-dancing. Thanks. We just get incredibly sarcastic and verbally abusive. It's a tradition.
If Independence happens, the framework will likely be a federal monarchy
, rather than a constitutional monarchy under the Acts of Union
. <shrugs> We'll not be totally unlinked.
In short, we're currently having the "no taxation without representation" issue all over again. Big deal. It'll sort itself out and we'll rejig the Scottish-English relationship again. We're used to that. <shrugs>
And, yes... when it comes to anything other than party representative selection (and Northern Ireland)... the UK doesn't do PR (including within the devolved governments of Wales and Scotland). Which, I'd kill to instil, btw: I'm not a Lib-Dem for nothing. Oh, and by resisting PR like the plague, the US is... taking a leaf out of Daddy Westminster's book.
The argument that a truly Proportional system, rather than sticking to FPTP, for Westminster might have prevented the currently devolved pass... is compelling. <shrugs> Note: Northern Ireland... is different. The Northern Irish Assembly does have a method of PR... as a means to prevent... issues blowing up.
edited 12th Nov '12 2:52:28 AM by Euodiachloris
@ Euo:
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the roots of English-Scottish enmity go back to the Anglo-Saxons, if not The Roman Empire.
Agreed. And, the Iberian peninsular is in the same boat for similar reasons. <shrugs>
So... devolution and the moves towards independence? Nope: not due to PR, but underlying stresses and potential schisms that stem from even before the days of active conquest, modern nation-states and the Divine Right of Kings. <shrugs>
edited 12th Nov '12 3:39:45 AM by Euodiachloris
TexMessage: Mitt Romney thanks his supporters in one last campaign email
Goodby Mittens.
Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016~rubs temples~
Please tell me this site isn't trustworthy. Please tell me he did not just do this.
I don't get the whole 'equal representation' line of reasoning. Of course urban areas should be more strongly represented than rural ones; they simply have more people.
The way you elect your Senate now, a vote in Nebraska has the same weight as twenty votes in California. How the hell do you call that 'equal'?
Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...
I kind of agree. It's one of the many reasons why I think PR... is wonderful. But, hey. That's just me. I don't rightly care if I choose the stranger that represents me or get a party to do that. I don't need a "personal" relationship that exists primarily in the imagination.
![]()
And, yeah... he did that. More than one site is reporting it. The spin it takes... varies.
edited 12th Nov '12 4:53:50 AM by Euodiachloris

Wait, you guys are suggesting proportional representation out of yourselves now?
*to other European countries*: Aw look, everybody, our baby's finally growing up! I'm so proud of her!
Party members. At party conferences.
edited 12th Nov '12 12:55:15 AM by MidnightRambler
Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...