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MidnightRambler Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan! from Germania Inferior Since: Mar, 2011
Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan!
#39851: Nov 12th 2012 at 12:55:06 AM

Wait, you guys are suggesting proportional representation out of yourselves now?

*to other European countries*: Aw look, everybody, our baby's finally growing up! I'm so proud of her!

Who determines which position candidates get on a ticket?

Party members. At party conferences.

edited 12th Nov '12 12:55:15 AM by MidnightRambler

Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39852: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:00:26 AM

[up]

Proportional representation creates fracturing nations.

Equal representation is the only way to preserve a Federation.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#39853: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:01:40 AM

[up][up]I think that's what Kostya was suggesting. But as you can see from this very discussion, there's a lot of resistance to this idea. Partly because how we have things now is very ingrained, and has been stable enough that it's probably difficult to convince enough folks that the cons outweigh the pros.

There's also the fact that changing things means a shift in power, and it's always difficult to convince the ones in power that this will Not negatively affect them;

[up]Deviant, I suggest you look at countries that have proportional representation. Like say, Germany. Which isn't fracturing, last I checked. Spain's issues would arise regardless of proportional representation of parties, because it's largely an economic issue. The Scotland issue is also independent of that form of government, and if it happens is going to be a peaceful separation, not a war that will destabilize that entire island. Seriously, you choose the question of Scottish independence as an example of a fracturing nation? Those guys aren't going to war any time soon when there's far less violent methods available to them.

edited 12th Nov '12 1:07:38 AM by AceofSpades

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#39854: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:04:23 AM

Party members. At party conferences.

And a lot of people don't like the idea of giving political parties even more power than they have right now.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#39855: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:06:49 AM

I don't really think that's giving the parties power? Besides, it's not like being nominated is what gets you the win. As demonstrated by the clusterfuck of Republicans this year, having the party support doesn't mean the voters want you. All these contenders and they chose Romney. Regardless, a candidate is just that; a candidate. And candidates are, in the end, subject to approval by voters. The Proportional representation method would not change this.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39856: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:09:50 AM

Look what I'm trying to say is that if you try a proportional system for a country as big an diverse as the US,it creates problems.

Not that it matters because to create this system you'd have to amend the constitution (good luck with that legal and political nightmare).

Can't we just hire independent commissions to do redistricting, it so much simpler.

Party members. At party conferences.

The Conference's will make the Democrat Convention of 1968 seem orderly. tongue

edited 12th Nov '12 1:10:19 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#39857: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:11:39 AM

And people would still bitch about that. Kostya suggested it as a fairer way to distribute votes, that's all. And with either method you've got to convince enough people in charge to do so.

I don't get why this would require a constitutional amendment though.

pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#39858: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:13:55 AM

Proportional representation creates fracturing nations.

Your examples are disingenuous. Scottish and Catalan hopes for independence are borne of nationalist sentiment, not proportional representation. I would actually argue that proportional representation is more likely to keep a nation together than split it apart, because everyone has a voice.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39859: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:32:20 AM

[up]

Quite a few comments in the in Scotland thread go like:

One of the things that some Scottish independence campaigners and followers hate most about the United Kingdom is that we see ourselves as being dictated to by a government that we did not elect from a city on the southern coast of a completely different nation.

So I think representation might be a cause of Scotland's quest for independence.

because everyone has a voice.

But not all voices are equal.tongue

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39860: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:37:33 AM

Texas State Senator Wins Election After Death

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#39861: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:39:45 AM

Personally, I wish we could just take political parties and candidates' names off the ballot altogether and make it so every vote has to be a write-in vote.

edited 12th Nov '12 1:39:59 AM by RavenWilder

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39862: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:42:11 AM

[up]

It would be a spell-checker's worst nightmare.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
PhilippeO Since: Oct, 2010
#39863: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:48:54 AM

Equal representation is the only way to preserve a Federation.

But Kostya suggestion is PR at the State level. Its not like Senate will be abolished.

Party members. At party conferences.

And a lot of people don't like the idea of giving political parties even more power than they have right now.

There are Open List PR ==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list

its reduce power of Party elites, but still maintain PR.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39864: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:51:29 AM

[up]

But Kostya suggestion is PR at the State level. Its not like Senate will be abolished.

Yeah, but I'm tired and talking politics is like shifting gears (or something).

Iran VP: We will break Obama's 'grasping hands'

That does not sound positive.

Rick Perry keeps his presidential options open for 2016 after Romney defeat

I'm scared.

edited 12th Nov '12 1:56:33 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#39865: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:56:30 AM

So I think representation might be a cause of Scotland's quest for independence.

That's basically my point, though. If Scotland had better representation in Westminster, nationalist sentiment would likely be much weaker.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39866: Nov 12th 2012 at 1:58:02 AM

[up]

Well if Scotland isn't represented proportionally, then how is it represented?

edited 12th Nov '12 1:58:14 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#39867: Nov 12th 2012 at 2:08:29 AM

[up]

Just the same as everywhere else in the Westminster Elections, FPTP: it's just that England has a bigger population (c.52 million) than Scotland (c.5 million), and the Scots don't like it*

.

edited 12th Nov '12 2:09:50 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#39868: Nov 12th 2012 at 2:15:27 AM

[up][up]It's way more complicated than I think you realise. It has a National Assembly that sees to "all stuff Scottish", but still has to answer to Westminster. Which, hardly has a proportional system in place that represents Scottish interests.

Add to that several centuries worth of dissatisfaction... and stir. tongue You think the American South has a bit of a grudge with the North? Scottish-English issues are a variously bubbling stew a good millennium old. Yet, no current war, even if we're in a phase of political border-disputing sabre-dancing. Thanks. We just get incredibly sarcastic and verbally abusive. It's a tradition. [lol]

If Independence happens, the framework will likely be a federal monarchy, rather than a constitutional monarchy under the Acts of Union. <shrugs> We'll not be totally unlinked.

In short, we're currently having the "no taxation without representation" issue all over again. Big deal. It'll sort itself out and we'll rejig the Scottish-English relationship again. We're used to that. <shrugs>

And, yes... when it comes to anything other than party representative selection (and Northern Ireland)... the UK doesn't do PR (including within the devolved governments of Wales and Scotland). Which, I'd kill to instil, btw: I'm not a Lib-Dem for nothing. Oh, and by resisting PR like the plague, the US is... taking a leaf out of Daddy Westminster's book.

The argument that a truly Proportional system, rather than sticking to FPTP, for Westminster might have prevented the currently devolved pass... is compelling. <shrugs> Note: Northern Ireland... is different. The Northern Irish Assembly does have a method of PR... as a means to prevent... issues blowing up.

edited 12th Nov '12 2:52:28 AM by Euodiachloris

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39869: Nov 12th 2012 at 2:50:10 AM

I officially love this Gif.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#39870: Nov 12th 2012 at 3:28:26 AM

@ Euo:

You think the American South has a bit of a grudge with the North? Scottish-English issues are a variously bubbling stew a good millennium old.

wild mass guess I wouldn't be surprised if some of the roots of English-Scottish enmity go back to the Anglo-Saxons, if not The Roman Empire. wild mass guess

Keep Rolling On
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#39871: Nov 12th 2012 at 3:34:23 AM

[up]Agreed. And, the Iberian peninsular is in the same boat for similar reasons. <shrugs>

So... devolution and the moves towards independence? Nope: not due to PR, but underlying stresses and potential schisms that stem from even before the days of active conquest, modern nation-states and the Divine Right of Kings. <shrugs>

edited 12th Nov '12 3:39:45 AM by Euodiachloris

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#39872: Nov 12th 2012 at 3:37:28 AM

TexMessage: Mitt Romney thanks his supporters in one last campaign email

Goodby Mittens.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39873: Nov 12th 2012 at 4:34:39 AM

It kills me that I have to post this right after Deviant's link but if I don't do it now I'll forget.

~rubs temples~

Please tell me this site isn't trustworthy. Please tell me he did not just do this.

MidnightRambler Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan! from Germania Inferior Since: Mar, 2011
Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan!
#39874: Nov 12th 2012 at 4:44:35 AM

I don't get the whole 'equal representation' line of reasoning. Of course urban areas should be more strongly represented than rural ones; they simply have more people.

The way you elect your Senate now, a vote in Nebraska has the same weight as twenty votes in California. How the hell do you call that 'equal'?

Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#39875: Nov 12th 2012 at 4:52:48 AM

[up]I kind of agree. It's one of the many reasons why I think PR... is wonderful. But, hey. That's just me. I don't rightly care if I choose the stranger that represents me or get a party to do that. I don't need a "personal" relationship that exists primarily in the imagination. tongue

[up][up]And, yeah... he did that. More than one site is reporting it. The spin it takes... varies.

edited 12th Nov '12 4:53:50 AM by Euodiachloris


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