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GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#39376: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:05:17 PM

Part of the problem is that most illegal immigrants are farm workers, which is subject to a different set of labor laws. They don't have to pay minimum wage, overtime, etc, and it's all legal. It stems from a time when paying farm hands minimum wage would have driven the family farm out of business.

In addition, most Americans just refuse to do farm work, since it's backbreaking labor that's below minimum wage. It's pretty much immigrant labor or bust.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#39377: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:23:26 PM

Some farms tried getting their fruit picked without immigrant labor. They lost whole crops.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#39378: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:28:22 PM

If we need to hire immigrant labour on a seasonal basis for crops, let's do this properly. Set up a government job exchange program like Japan, Korea, and China do for their English teachers. Pay for their fare over at the beginning of the harvest, and send them back when it's over. Not that fucking hard.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#39379: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:29:20 PM

@GG: It's mostly the "Below minimum wage" bit.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39380: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:31:11 PM

[up][up]We did that in the post WW 2 era actually. It didn't continue for some reason.

edit: It was the Bracero program if you're curious.

edited 9th Nov '12 1:33:36 PM by Kostya

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#39381: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:32:24 PM

@Taoist: Actually, I'd suggest that fastracking the visa process for farm workers would be a good idea. We already do it for skilled laborers and those with degrees.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39382: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:33:57 PM

[up]Farm workers aren't skilled laborers?

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#39383: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:35:03 PM

@Kostya: They're not considered as such, no.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#39385: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:41:59 PM

It's mostly the "Below minimum wage" bit.

That. I'd gladly do these kinds of jobs if they actually bothered paying a wage that made up for it. But if I'm moving somewhere to do a high-risk job that doesn't even pay enough for basic subsistence (and thus effectively paying for the privilege of doing their job), much less medical costs for work-related injuries, I'm better off in literally every way remaining unemployed and bleeding money slowly instead of hemorrhaging it on rent and medical bills.

edited 9th Nov '12 1:43:48 PM by Pykrete

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#39386: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:49:48 PM

We're past peak oil anyways; more Americans will need to learn agricultural skills as the cost of transporting food rises. Urban agriculture projects in particular may become essential. Maybe a farm work exchange program targeting youth: the government pays for people between the ages of 16-29 to travel to rural areas and take part in the harvest. The farms pay as little as they can get away with and governments subsidize the rest of the paycheque up to minimum wage, as well as providing housing and such.

Ulterior motive: flooding rural areas with transient urban youth populations for months at a time, hopefully enabling a hearts and minds campaign to reduce racism and tribalism amongst areas with high concentrations of low-info voters.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39387: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:52:14 PM

[up]That could also backfire and turn the city population into frothing lunatics.

It does sound like an interesting idea though.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#39388: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:54:14 PM

Wait, that article says Obama "imagined" a planned to abolish the suburbs. What?

[up][up]That would be quite a cultural shift, as that sounds almost communistic. Also, you'd have to do away with the stigma of hard labor as something only uneducated rednecks and poor immigrants do. Still, that seems a better use of farm subsidies than all the ones spent on getting them to grow corn.

Also I don't see it allowing anyone under eighteen due to child labor laws and the like.

edited 9th Nov '12 1:54:49 PM by AceofSpades

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#39390: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:58:23 PM

Also, you'd have to do away with the stigma of hard labor as something only uneducated rednecks and poor immigrants do.
This is gonna change one way or the other.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#39391: Nov 9th 2012 at 1:59:38 PM

...That actually sounds like a really good idea. I mean, not only would it help educate the rural areas, but it would give the teenagers something to do so that they don't turn to gangs or crime, and provide their family with supplemental income.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#39392: Nov 9th 2012 at 2:00:13 PM

Yeah, farms would be a lot better off without 1/3 of our arable land being used to grow biofuel. It's not even close to our best way to get at clean energy for cars.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39393: Nov 9th 2012 at 2:00:32 PM

It could also backfire spectacularly if any of these kids cause trouble while they're out there.

[up]We could bring food prices down too since more corn is entering the food supply.

edited 9th Nov '12 2:01:11 PM by Kostya

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#39394: Nov 9th 2012 at 2:00:35 PM

@Kostya: The one about David Frum. He lists it among the things that Republicans claim that aren't try or something? Pretty easy to miss since that's not the main point of his editorial anyway.

[up]Yeah, but that's true of any place that has large gatherings of young people. You know, like colleges and high schools.

edited 9th Nov '12 2:01:09 PM by AceofSpades

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39395: Nov 9th 2012 at 2:02:45 PM

I know but it would be an especially bad problem in this scenario since it would just prove all the stereotypes these people have about minorities and poor city families.

MidnightRambler Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan! from Germania Inferior Since: Mar, 2011
Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan!
#39396: Nov 9th 2012 at 2:05:02 PM
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#39397: Nov 9th 2012 at 2:05:36 PM

Uh... No it wouldn't. Anyway, you can't avoid having some trouble when gathering a bunch of youth together. Shit happens. Just set them up like camp cabins with someone serving as the adult in charge if shit goes down. *shrug*

Actually, I think they used to do something like this in the USSR? When it still was the USSR, anyway. It was part of the college age requirements?

Midnight: A voluntary program or college requirement is NOT the same thing as the Khmer Rouge.

edited 9th Nov '12 2:06:26 PM by AceofSpades

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#39398: Nov 9th 2012 at 2:08:31 PM

How the hell do you get from voluntary youth farm work program to Khmer Rouge?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
#39400: Nov 9th 2012 at 2:36:21 PM

I'm a little offended by the idea that rural people need to be "educated" by urban youth, but that aside it certainly does seem like it would be beneficial to our society if more young people did manual labor.

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